Forge and Nova
- Thread starter Strikingwolf
- Start date
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Anyway, @asiekierka was getting messed with by lex. Makes me doubt lex's ability to manage Forge
https://twitter.com/asiekierka/status/561467896019562496
Then this discussion with Lex
https://github.com/MinecraftForge/FML/pull/595
Here is asie bloggin 'bout it
http://blog.asie.pl/2015/01/Drama-1-8/
Although I usually hate drama. I don't think some of Lex's recent actions can go unanswered.
Anyway, @asiekierka was getting messed with by lex. Makes me doubt lex's ability to manage Forge
https://twitter.com/asiekierka/status/561467896019562496
Then this discussion with Lex
https://github.com/MinecraftForge/FML/pull/595
Here is asie bloggin 'bout it
http://blog.asie.pl/2015/01/Drama-1-8/
Although I usually hate drama. I don't think some of Lex's recent actions can go unanswered.
Lex is an egotistical t***. What else is new?
Yeah, I might get banned for that, but a man who acts like that really leaves himself open for the same kind of criticism.
The big thing here is the banning of the BuildCraft contributors, which doesn't make any sense. Lex is more or less right about everything else, and even Asie agrees with that. Not saying he couldn't go about it in a better way, but the basis of what he says is fair and true.
Lex blocking coremods from modifying FML or Forge classes means that if another situation arises like with 1.6.4 or 1.7.x, where there's a serious bug that will never get officially fixed due to the lack of support for old versions, then not even a coremod can fix it and we'll be relying on JAR patches. You know, the very thing that got me griped at when I released a patch like that for the problem initially, and what spurred Lex to make the coremod version because he said he was tired of hearing people talk about my version. Based on today's freak-out, it was more likely that he just didn't like me touching FML in general rather than my approach to doing so.
Lex eliminating all coremods, on the other hand, means a lot of the big 1.7.10 mods will never get updated to 1.8. Many mod authors don't seem to bother trying to get additions made to Forge anymore, probably because of what they face when they try to, so ASM is the easier option these days. Combine that with the irrational choice Lex made for the rendering in 1.8, ASM is almost essential for some mods. My own would stop working, and I would likely just leave them that way, since I already have one of them fully ported and running on my own API and loader.
The dumbest part about it is that custom renderers and coremods are just not that big of a problem. Of course bugs happen, but bugs get fixed. If a mod is too buggy, we simply don't use it until it's better. For an API to restrict modding capabilities rather than increase them, especially when based on what-ifs, is completely counterproductive and nonsensical.
Even in the latter situation, with all coremod functionality removed, 1.8 Forge's use in the short-term is still viable. Someone could replace the 'main' class in the user's version JSON with a pre-loader, modify Forge before it ever loads to remove the restrictions and/or add coremod framework back in, and be on their merry way. Though I emphasize short-term, because this is a ridiculous situation to be in, and when an API is actively fighting you then it's time to stop using it, or fork it. Most modders seem keen to stay on 1.7.10 anyway, mostly due to the rendering, and that's where Immibis' Forge fork is as well, so 1.8 is looking less and less viable. It's a real shame.
Lex eliminating all coremods, on the other hand, means a lot of the big 1.7.10 mods will never get updated to 1.8. Many mod authors don't seem to bother trying to get additions made to Forge anymore, probably because of what they face when they try to, so ASM is the easier option these days. Combine that with the irrational choice Lex made for the rendering in 1.8, ASM is almost essential for some mods. My own would stop working, and I would likely just leave them that way, since I already have one of them fully ported and running on my own API and loader.
The dumbest part about it is that custom renderers and coremods are just not that big of a problem. Of course bugs happen, but bugs get fixed. If a mod is too buggy, we simply don't use it until it's better. For an API to restrict modding capabilities rather than increase them, especially when based on what-ifs, is completely counterproductive and nonsensical.
Even in the latter situation, with all coremod functionality removed, 1.8 Forge's use in the short-term is still viable. Someone could replace the 'main' class in the user's version JSON with a pre-loader, modify Forge before it ever loads to remove the restrictions and/or add coremod framework back in, and be on their merry way. Though I emphasize short-term, because this is a ridiculous situation to be in, and when an API is actively fighting you then it's time to stop using it, or fork it. Most modders seem keen to stay on 1.7.10 anyway, mostly due to the rendering, and that's where Immibis' Forge fork is as well, so 1.8 is looking less and less viable. It's a real shame.
I don't think Lex will actually eliminate all coremods. He said that multiple times and never went with it.
Let's see what depends on coremods in 1.7.10 and *cannot* live without them... CoFH mods, ChickenBones' mods, NotEnoughItems, Forge Multipart, Immibis' Microblocks, Applied Energistics 2, FastCraft, (maybe) IC2 (they used IC2-Core for sound once), OpenComputers, OpenPeripheral, ServerTools, ttCore (and thus Ender IO), that's just a few. In 1.8, the list grows.
And to finish off the list: Sponge.
What is more likely and what he admitted multiple times in IRC is that he would love to make all coremods signed by the Forge "team" and only working if the certificate matches. That would simply be devastating.
I believe we should just stay on 1.7.10 as modders for now. Modpack authors will definitely appreciate the chance to make high quality packs without modders split on two versions. We will be able to focus on features and not ridiculous politics. It's a win-win!
Let's see what depends on coremods in 1.7.10 and *cannot* live without them... CoFH mods, ChickenBones' mods, NotEnoughItems, Forge Multipart, Immibis' Microblocks, Applied Energistics 2, FastCraft, (maybe) IC2 (they used IC2-Core for sound once), OpenComputers, OpenPeripheral, ServerTools, ttCore (and thus Ender IO), that's just a few. In 1.8, the list grows.
And to finish off the list: Sponge.
What is more likely and what he admitted multiple times in IRC is that he would love to make all coremods signed by the Forge "team" and only working if the certificate matches. That would simply be devastating.
I believe we should just stay on 1.7.10 as modders for now. Modpack authors will definitely appreciate the chance to make high quality packs without modders split on two versions. We will be able to focus on features and not ridiculous politics. It's a win-win!
Or here's a shocking idea drop lex from the forge dev team. Since he seems to think it's become to much fing work. And I'm sure there are many who would love to lend there talent to such a noteworthy and important project.
Mod dev isn't supposed to be work. It's supposed to be fun. If he can no longer handle it he should quit and go make flash games.
Mod dev isn't supposed to be work. It's supposed to be fun. If he can no longer handle it he should quit and go make flash games.
You won't get banned for that. You might get a warning... if anyone disagreed with you.
And how much of that is because no one else wants to work with him?
Even if it took 20 other guys to replace him it would still be an improvement.
No one person should ever have that kind of power.
Honestly, what I think would be better is an alternate mod loader that would be able to co-exist with forge. This would stop people spamming the forge team with their ideas and it would add in a bit of competition to make sure no-one got too big of a head.
The inherent problem is that Lex actually thinks he has the right to introduce DRM on the Minecraft community. To be blunt, he doesn't have any say on anything that modders do. That's not his job. His job is to make an open API that creates the most compatibility between mods, which was why Forge was created to begin with. For so many mods to by relying on ASM now is simply a failure on Forge's part, and therefore a failure on Lex's part.
Yeah. If this many mods start ASMing into the same piece of code it will end in disaster
That may work, but it could also kill large modpacks. There would need to be a way to load both of them at the same time
Lex said multiple times he only wants people to work with who he considers (a) knowledgeable enough and (b) agreeing with him enough. So far, the only people who fit that were cpw and Rainwarrior
That is why I said co-exist, like forge but maybe has: "NewSystem_Mods" folder for you to place your mods into. Then make it have the same initialization process as forge, but with just a different source. That is what I think would be good anyway...
Great idea we could call it Nether_forge the problem is that would split the modding community in two.