A New Direction [BC API/RF API]

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The Shitstorm thread was an experiment. I wanted to try out a new method of dealing with modded MC drama rather than endless threads about nothing (e.g. the Gregtech/mDiyo debacle). I decided to start two threads. One would consist of people arguing and voicing their opinions as usual. Then after a bit and both sides had their say, I would have the thread locked and compile the data into a second thread. This thread would contain info from the poll, some follow up (for those familiar with podcasts like Hypercritical and ATP) and clarification on my end, and compiled quotes selected from the previous thread. This is a model similar to what The Week Magazine does in their weekly periodical. I decided to do this because most “drama” related to modded MC has no real way of getting discussed civilly and many threads, as the title of the previous one alludes to, become a shitstorm.


Again, I will start this one on a note similar to the last. If you wish to just scream and shout in the comments below, feel free. You may get banned, warned, slapped, eaten or consumed by bears, but you are free to do so. Keep in mind, however, that you are not getting the full concept of the thread and you will be judged accordingly. I hope this thread will set an example and not get overrun by whiners or people arguing over trivial things.


Let’s get started.


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Parties involved: Redstone Flux API, Buildcraft API, Forestry, Railcraft, Buildcraft, Thermal Expansion, mods based on the RF API, KingLemming, CovertJaguar, Spacetoad, and more.


What happened: On the ForestryMC GitHub @CovertJaguar posted (3 days ago at the time of this posting) this:

I'm giving this my blessing.


In my eyes I no longer see any difference between the MJ and RF APIs. The MJ API is quickly falling to the same level as the RF API. However, since it is a significantly more complicated API that is currently suffering an identify crisis and riddled with bugs, I recommend that Forestry drops all support for the MJ API effective immediately.


The MJ API currently used by Forestry has been demonstrated to no longer be properly supported nor, functioning correctly. Switching to the MJBattery API would require a similar amount of effort as switching to RF. RF seems the better choice.


All engines and machines should be rewritten to natively support RF. Railcraft will likely be following the same path eventually.


However, as we do not want to add a hard dependency on any external code, an internal API that allows Forestry Engines to provide power directly to Forestry Machines should be developed. This API should not be made public, but should be the default for engine-machine interfacing, falling back on RF only if the internal API fails.

Also, Covert himself has stated (please can someone find the actual quote) that Railcraft will be following a somewhat similar direction.


The Concern: As has been voiced on many threads across many forums and twitter, the concern is for the life of Minecraft Joules as a power system. This has brought up many subsequent concerns such as:

Do you like RF? Do you like MJ? How could we approach this problem? Can we build mods to model MJ, yet still built off of RF? What does this mean for Buildcraft? Buildcraft pipes? Where do we go forward from here?

The Poll Response (data presented thanks to @ShneekeyTheLost ):

1. Lossless power
   35 vote(s)
   34.0%
2. Lossy power
   30 vote(s)
   29.1%
3. Safe power (without danger)
   25 vote(s)
   24.3%
4. Dangerous power if you do it wrong
   58 vote(s)
   56.3%
5. Plug in and play
   24 vote(s)
   23.3%
6. Thought and care required to not waste power
   56 vote(s)
   54.4%
7. RF
   45 vote(s)
   43.7%
8. MJ
   23 vote(s)
   22.3%
9. Mechanical power
   28 vote(s)
   27.2%

The top voted were as follows:

1. Dangerous power if you do it wrong
2. Thought and care required not to waste power
3. RF
4. Lossless power
5. Lossy power
6. Mechanical power
7. Safe power
8. Plug in and play
9. MJ

The Community Response: As can be attributed to the rapid growth of the thread and the comments on Reddit when Covert posted it there, the community has much to say.


1. Who cares?

Some people just want to play:

@epidemia78

Why does it matter so much? Its just numbers representing how much coal/ect you have burned.


This was one thing brought up, that we should not even care. Let the modders decide, and in the end all that some people want is some machines to process their stuff and automation. The power system is something that should be simple and out of the way.

@HeilMewTwo

I feel that this is a non-issue. MJ in the first place was nowhere near as complicated as Eu. You can't expect me to agree with you if the only changes in how the systems work as those above have stated are no storage and inefficient machines. Then I really couldn't care less, indeed once you get a mid-game power setup I usually find MJ and RF to be exactly the same in functionality.

@Wagon153

I voted for all of them because of the fact I like ALL of the power systems. So what if a majority(or what seems like it) of the community doesn't like the power system you like, or vice versa. Mods will still continue to be made that have complex power systems. Will there be as many? Maybe not. But they will still happen. Everybody is panicking and complaining over nothing.

@Cptqrk

Look folks, this can all boil down to one simple lesson.


If you don't like it, don't use it.


@Reika 's mod shows that hard mode mods are appreciated, and well used. No one is forcing people to use RoC, but many do. Good on them.

Devs, no matter what they do, will have to put up with idiots, hell, we have an entire thread dedicated to those idiots (stupid things people say about modded MC anyone?)


Maybe it's the Canadian in me that just wants people to enjoy the mods they enjoy, the more interaction and ability to set up your base the way you want the better IMO

Want to run your macerator on EU or RF? Cool, why not... This allows the folks who want a challenge to be able to do so, while those who want to just get it done and get on to something else can.

All of these posts come to the same conclusion: Let the community evolve. It doesn't matter. Keep calm and carry on. Very reasonable and sensible in their own right.

2. Keep in mind RF is an API
RF is a malleable API that has plenty of potential.
@Deftscythe

I've only skimmed the thread so sorry if this was mentioned but people should bear in mind that RF itself isn't really a thing, it's an API. The only thing that should remain constant is it's value relative to other forms of power(IE 1MJ=10RF), beyond that mod-makers are free to implement it any way they see fit. Someone could make dynamos that produce like engines and will explode if unattended or cables that lose power with distance. It's not the fault of RF that devs have chosen to copy TE's implementation.

@ShneekeyTheLost

I think there's been a basic misunderstanding of the difference between an API and a Mod.


A Mod is something you use and play with as an end-user. An API is a framework for mods to work with, to make the modder's job easier.


RF is an API, not a mod. By itself, it does absolutely nothing but provide a clean and efficient code framework to run, in this case, a power network. However, it doesn't dictate how that power handles from an end-user perspective.

The RF API can be used to make as complex a system as possible. If you want wiring to blow up when receiving power in excess of the limit, you can do that with the RF API. If you want a power network that can only go so far without needing a relay? You can do that with the RF API. If you want a power network that you have to be particular as to how you set it up to avoid inefficiency? You can do that with the RF API.


People seem to be confused because the Thermal Expansion power network, based on the RF API and its showcase, was a simple and elegant system. That doesn't, however, mean the RF API is limited to that sort of power network.


Looking at the votes, I find that there are currently more people voting for complex systems than simple ones. Maybe someone will recognize this and make a power mod based on RF that isn't simply plug-and-play.

@ShneekeyTheLost

...This is why I think a complex RF mod is *NEEDED*. Because people need to understand that an API is just the foundation, that it has incredible flexibility. People need a wakeup call. I don't think the uproar is going to be as bad as predicted.

3. People love RF both for simplicity and for flexibility
Some people had very nice responses that don't fit under one category. They all had a theme however.
@RJS

I personally like using RF. My main preference for mods is towards the magic mods, and with a few exceptions I like to do most of it by hand. I'm not fussed about automating my essentia, or setting up a system that I can feed in a barrel of stone and get more livingrock than I will ever need to use unless I decide to make a tower out of it. As a result, I tend to use my power system and machines as a support for what I want to do. I don't have a huge amount of interest in setting up a complex, gated power grid just to run a basic machine set that covers my main needs.


That being said, I understand that other people enjoy sinking time into setting up their power systems, using a complicated energy grid and overcoming the challenges that doing so presents. That's their way of doing things, and it has no impact on how I do things. Live and let live.


From what I understand (which isn't much since I've never played around with MJ-based power), Buildcraft is where most of the energy management comes from. Most RF conduits already auto-convert to MJ, and so people can use Buildcraft machines without having to go into the Buildcraft energy system.


So one way this issue could be resolved in a way that impacts no-one's enjoyment of how they play the game is to let Buildcraft's energy net accept power from RF producers and power RF-based machines. This might upset some people, but then people are free to build whatever system they so desire, using either RF or MJ for their energy net and not being penalised for either. This would also mean that Railcraft and Forestry switching to RF would have no impact on MJ users, as their systems could still power everything and be powered by everything as it once was.


An alternative would be to have a config option for Railcraft and Forestry allowing them to be based off of either MJ or RF, but this isn't so fluid in the case of a MP servers, where whoever sets up the server makes the call and the people who disagree with the eventual decision are just unlucky.


Ultimately, I'm just trying to see a solution where people can play how they want, whether that be with the greater accessibility and ease afforded by RF, or with the challenges and complexity offered by MJ. I'm sure there are better solutions out there though.

@Serendipiteit in response:

This would make everything very convenient, but it would also make part of that mod completely ignored, as people will never think of using that mod's own power generation systems. I like MJ, but even now in my multiplayer server I power my fillers and centrifuge using conduits that carry RF from dynamos. Reika was also complaining about how everyone uses magnetostatic engine instead of Rotarycraft's own machines. Personally I think the best way to ensure survival of one specific power system is to remove all compatibility between that system and the RF. People will use that mod's own system if there isn't any easy alternative.

@Yusunoha

I don't have a problem with RF and I really love when mods become really compatible with eachother, so more mods using RF sounds good to me


but I'll be honest, I'm dumb as f***

I don't mind doing some math and setting up a bit of a complex system, but I don't really like it if I need to do step after step after step, constantly calculating and constantly keeping everything in check to be able to produce a good amount of power. could RF become a bit more complicated? sure, but I do love the simplicity of RF


though it'd be nice if for example a mod could influence the whole RF system with perhaps lowering the generation of most RF generators and perhaps adding some difficulty to the system

@GreatOrator had some great thoughts on why not only is RF fine and we should accept it, but that variety is good for an ecosystem

Ok, so here's my opinion:


In the early days of me starting to play modded minecraft there were three main types of power...EU, MJ, and BlueTricity. For this discussion I will leave out Blue.


To start, the arguments for what you would like to see in RF is basically what EU already did (or does now with recent changes). Why do we want a copy? EU has its pros and cons just as RF does now but when I started, I went with MJ more than EU simply BECAUSE it was simple to use, much like RF is now, and the benefits EU had with certain machines made me use it some times. EU had storage, MJ did not...until TE. Times have changed, from my perspective RF is the new MJ, it is the easy power to use, little thought needed other than figuring out if you are generating more power than needed, I like it this way. There are times that EU is good as well with certain mods.


Rather than trying to turn RF into the new EU, let's accept it for what it has become, a replacement for MJ and go with that, you can still use the BC pipes with it if you want, heck, you can use the Extra Utilities energy transfer pipes to convert EU into MJ or RF as well if you want and vice-versa. The systems work perfectly as they are designed and mod makers have even built in additional functionality to make it cross-over between power types.


Basically, make the power system as complicated or as simple as you want to have it, not because you are forced to, but in true sandbox fashion, but because you want to.


Variety is the spice, and power systems that everyone is losing interest in will fall to the side while others rise up to fill the gap as modding has done since the beginning and will for the foreseeable future no reason to fight over the inevitable.

@FrostyDude2475

This is a very intense topic and from my previous experience I use RF a lot more than other forms of energy only due to the mod packs that I have played. I enjoy the fact that RF is a very simplistic type of idea that works very well.

@McJty had a great response on why RF is fine in certain packs and that it is all about the situation

I am a fan of two ways to play:


Sometimes I don't feel like bothering with power and then I just go with bigreactors. Without turbines big reactors are really easy. With turbines it is a bit harder but still relatively easy to do once you know the numbers.

Other times I feel like being challenged and want to do things the hard way. I'm currently playing Ultra Hard (ATLauncher) and I must say I'm really enjoying it. Even though I died about 30 times already in just an hour or so of playtime


For me it depends in the kind of mood. Personally I think RF is a great power system but I do think there should be more power options that add some challenge to RF. I have used RotaryCraft in some of my plays to generate RF which is a bit harder then the typical generator thing. Also setting up a fully automated Big Reactor with turbines that doesn't require maintenance is also some work.


What I really want to say is that I don't think that RF as a power is really a problem here. We just need more (and more challenging) options to generate RF. That way you can build modpacks around this challenge.

4. The issue is complex. It involves the modset, the community, danger, and other various factors

Some people believe that there is a gaping hole in the mods developed around RF. These people also sometimes posted a suggestion. All of these posts were good yet hard to categorize.

@trajing echoed the opinions of various others with this statement:

...And mod devs make mods they would like to play. The power systems were made for the creator's enjoyment. They all cater to their own type.

This is something that popped up again and again, not really a part of the original question but something that came out during the discussion.

@boondockArtist had a suggestion that he hated himself, but something that people were undoutably thinking anyway

I'm a hypocrite in the matter here. I like redstone flux as a system, and I cannot say that I do not use it because that is a flat out lie. However, I personally want to see it more complex. Or at least, a little bit more? I mean, hell, they gave the machines tiers in TE4, why not use that as an example of energy tiering, same goes with the various conduits/energy ducts(?) out there. Like, there could be Low RedstoneFlux (LRF), Intermediate RF (IRF), High RF (HRF) and Resonant RF (RRF). That's four tiers to go with the four machine tiers.


Of course, that would mean that resonant energy ducts would have to be a thing, but I remember reading once that somebody would rather want that late game anyway. And with this, there'd have to be converters, and dynamo changes. Steam dynamos/survivalist engines/stirling generator/other early energy producers would supply you with LRF, and the same pattern going with what you'd see fit, probably the RRF power producing tier would include things like the reactant dynamos and big reactors and all that fun stuff. Cells would probably need upgrades for like, how much energy they can store at the price of the speed of filling up, because, well, the tiers should probably effect them too. The only thing that'd probably accept all types of RF would probably be the capacitor banks from Ender IO, and the same for MFR machines, but you'd need converters if you want to take the energy out or put them into machines (see below). Also energy loss should be a thing with ducts, with the lower tiers being the most notable. The highest tier would still have a energy loss in distance, but not something to worry about like you should and would with the previous teirs


With the tiers, you can't say, use HRF on a basic machine, otherwise that would overload said machine and possibly fry it. No explosions, just the inner workings of the machine just, stop working and the machine could very well turn back into a machine frame, losing whatever you have in there, upgrades, whatever you're doing, etc. Using LRF on, say a resonant machine is inefficient and with that example, it'd probably be a fourth of the energy going in, or it may drain the LRF without even accepting it.


To solve the problem of "hey! everything got fried! how can I use RRF in my basic machines u ruined my system everything got destroyed I hate u!!!11!11!", there'd be converters for every tier to every tier. LRF to IRF would be a 4:1 change, LRF to HRF would be 16:1 and so ons, the amount of energy required to convert going up by x4 per tier. IRF to higher iterations would be by x3 the amount per tier, and finally, HRF to RRF would be 2:1. And this would all go in reverse for whatever other reason you'd want to do that. For inter mod compatibility, there'd be converters between all the different types of RF to finally, pure RF, if there's a mod that would still require the old, easy system for it to run, like MineFactoryReloaded, unless they'd change it, and EnderIO and any other mod that adds a general energy storage battery. Pure RF would be about around IRF levels in both amounts and converting.


Of course, for the people who'd want a simpler sort of RF system



Unrelated to all of that, I'd personally like to see the energy go to mundane uses, like powering lights and fans of all kinds, for those times you have too much energy that you don't know what to do with. Also it gives you a reason to manage things better.


Sorry for the huge wall of text, even if it is spaced out. If anybody wants me to put it in a spoiler, I can do that.


But yeah, no single energy system when they're so easily compatible nowadays.

This was quickly pointed out as a problem, but nonetheless the point is gotten: the modset is simply unsatisfactory for the majority of players. Although modders don't make mods for people usually, and should never be expected to, there is a great portion of the modded MC community hungry for an RF mod with some complexity.

@midi_sec was very much of the multiple power systems camp:

For various reasons, I am anti-single power system. This is just one more move towards that situation and I do not like it.

And continued with a response to @boondockArtist :

That's complication just for complication's sake though. Actually, I think that falls more in line with depth. You're adding more tiers for...what? To suck up time. That is annoying, not fun. I want problems to solve. I want to have to actually think about how I am going to design a factory's power grid.

Other people were also quick to point out different power systems in the modding community that were quite different. Pneumaticraft, Hydraulicraft, RotaryCraft and others were all cited as examples.

@Nanolathe

No mention of Pneumatic Craft's Pressure? I am dissapoint.


I like RF, both as an API and in the way that it's implemented for the vast majority of mods that use it. I could stand a little more complexity, I could stand a little more depth...


But I'm not going to act like I'm entitled to anything more than a Mod Author is willing to produce. This thread has a little too much "I want" going on for my tastes.

The concern about the thread was something I wanted to address myself. I agree that people should not pressure modders into creating mods to their own liking, however that was not what the thread was about.

@Golrith pointed out that pressure was similar to RF in a way

Sorry, but pneumaticcrafts power system is the same as RF. You generate pressure (aka RF) in it's burning thingy (aka dynamo) connect the tubes (aka conduits) to say a pressure chamber (aka redstone furnace), once enough pressure has built up, it does something. The only differences are the equalisation of pressure across the system (nothing to major to worry about), and pressure tubes are open at one end, so will drain your pressure when not connected (so you have to build smart).


Perhaps some of you guys would like the top tier conduits to leak their liquid redstone when a conduit doesn't make a connection? Just like PneumaticCrafts pressure tubes?


Anyway, the main issue I have with power systems at the moment is the generation rate. Take in the old days, your BC engines I believe generated 1, 2 or 4 mj/t. Forestry added it's own within this scale, and Railcraft added a new top tier engine that reached the dizzy heights of 8mj/t. You had to build "engine spam" to get a lot of machines running and people are happy. Nowadays some people are not happy that other people are building Dynamo Spam.

Then along came Thermal Expansion with Dynamos, that straight out of the bat in the first version produced the equivalent of 4mj/t (then upgraded to 8mj/t!). Instantly making all those other mods power gen systems seem obsolete by appearing inferior. While I love what KL and team COFH have produced, the dynamo rate is something I strongly disagree with (but I am pleased it's now a config option).



If the community has an issue with the RF API, then it's the community's fault. KL just demonstrates a basic implementation of RF API in TE, and has stated numerous times that it can be designed to be lossy like MJ, but that's down to modders using the API.


The only way to get a more involved, complex, challenging, thought engaging power system is not to scream and yell about how dull RF is, but to come up with a design and demonstrate it. Mobs with placards rarely get anything achieved.

@Celestialphoenix pointed out something about the poll I will address in a bit, as well as an interesting take on mechanical energy and dynamo output

I'd probably lump 'mechanical' energy as a transmission of force/kinetic energy (Rotational/Hydraulic/Pneumatic) wheres 'electrical' energy is conducted through a medium (Eu/MJ/RF). Magic is "magic".


Either way having a lossy network results in better gameplay- because you're engaging the player and encouraging them to design systems and think creatively.

Heck- you could drop a 10% loss on TE's conduits AND buff dynamos by 10%.

Theres no overall difference in efficiency (you still have '100%' of the power feeding the machines), but immediately you've got someone thinking a little more about what their doing, and how they could achieve '105%'...


One thing I like love about the buildcraft engines/powergrid is the logic, gates, and control you can design into a system. Give the control to the player. Give them the tools to sculpt with, rather than a pile of statues.

This discussion then morphed into ideas about how mods could implement danger and an incentive to build correctly without instant explosions.

@Nanolathe in response to @trajing

trajing said: @Golrith Except the pressure equalizes, making it more of a challenge. If you have more compressors, you need to use a ton more coal to fill the same machine to the same level.

And things can go boom if you leave them unregulated for too long.


It's actually the only punishment system I'm rather fond of; it takes time before it all goes to hell, rather than blowing up in your face the moment you do something "wrong", and there are regulation systems built-in to the mod that can make the system 100% safe again.

@Golrith agreed

Yep. I like that too. Similar to the original BC system of engines exploding, you had a short amount of time and a visual warning.

Minecraft being Minecraft, it's very easy to misclick or misplace something, if that something happens to be a high voltage power cable that must go in one place only, just for it to go in the block next door resulting in BOOM is a poor design decison. Like most players, I play this game for fun, not for punishment (well, unless I'm feeling sadist and fancy BnB or a bit of crash landing... )


Perhaps it would be worth making a poll/discussion to identify what are the existing interesting power generation mechanics that are popular, and try and establish how it could be applied into a RF environment or as a new unique power system, since, nothing lasts forever, something in the future will "replace" RF.

@eric167 put it well

...RF isn't bad by itself. its that too many modders are jumping on its bandwagon due to its simplicity of use for the player, and for some, the fact they don't have to write their own unique power system is a huge plus.

but not helping is some players (and some modmakers to be honest) tendency to treat RF as a FOO strategy- its so easy it beats out everything else.

this hurts those players though, by denying them the exploration of other power systems and mods that arnt easily RF compatible.


since its been mentioned earlier, Pnumaticraft has a interesting mechanic of its own. though I haven't gotten around to messing too much with it, I do not want to see it go.


IMO, more mods should have their own, unique power system instead of all jumping onto one.

however, care should be taken that complexity is for the sake of depth and overall enjoyment, not complexity for its own sake.


two biggest poll options at the moment are "thought and care required for best results" and "dangerous if done wrong", which makes me a bit hopeful.

To be continued as this post is getting too long to fit. Please refrain from replying until I make the second post

 

[Qazplm601]

hope this goes over well. that is all.

 

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Note I apologize if I missed anything because word count.

5. The discussion itself was flawed

I will take the blame here. I failed on a couple fronts.

The first was cohesion. My original post was unclear on its meaning in some points. I was slightly insulting. The whole concept of MC "drama" is moronic. @Omicron put it perfectly:

...The heck?

I've been away for modded Minecraft and FTB for the past eight months, because at the time a KSP addiction coincided with a general feeling of a degeneration in quality of the FTB community as a whole due to modding-related drama - I noticed a good number of active FTBers going out of their way to sign up on other boards for the sole purpose of posting expletive-filled, person-attacking hate tirades against a few modders who they happened to disagree with. I felt like these forums were quickly becoming a place I did no longer want to be associated with. Thankfully, from the little peeks I occasionally took during the hiatus, things quieted down a lot and people seemed to focus more on actually playing and discussing gameplay rather than treat Minecraft and its mods' ongoing development as some sort of internet justice war with mandatory draft.

Then I picked up modded Minecraft again, and decided to stop by at the FTB forums to chat a bit about the various new and interesting things I'm finding in today's gameplay environment. And the very first thread that stares into my face when entering the Mod Discussion forum is... this?

Dear @Queue: in your opening post you seek to group yourself with "[t]he rest of the civil, and literate people" while simultaneously blanket-insulting every single reader that clicks on your intentionally misleading, click-baiting and irrelevant title. You condemn those that "simply shout and complain", and then proceed to make a post with nearly other content beyond shouting and complaining (in boldened, upsized fonts) about a development you do not understand, but most definitely do not like. I'm honestly disappointed to a great extent that this kind of post seems in any way, shape or form acceptable to the FTB forum moderation.

Your post was not in any way exemplifying civility or literacy. In fact, it was hypocritical to the highest order and so far removed from what you heatedly claimed to associate yourself with that I felt the need to type up these four frustrating paragraphs solely because I feel so utterly embarrassed to actually share your opinions to a large degree.

I too am sort of disappointed by the fact that the depth-less TE baseline implementation of the Redstone Flux API (which is capable of supporting much more) seems to become a kind of "lowest denominator standard" for everyone to fall back on because it's impossible for anyone to do it wrong. I have no desire to create RF, I have no desire to build RF power networks, and I have no desire to see more mods discontinue interesting game mechanics in favor of another "number goes in, number comes out, stuff starts working by itself" model. I'm an engineer at heart, and that's not engineering; that's just putting together a puzzle comprised of 5 pieces that can fit in any combination. In other words, it's a puzzle only in name.

The thing is, though: that doesn't make the world end. A lowest common denominator doesn't have to be all negative. It only "dumbs down the game" if you let it - if you use nothing else. There are mods today that offer highly complex, engaging power systems, and then give you a block that converts that power into RF. Rotarycraft is just one example, and that ought to be complex enough for anyone. So what keeps a player who is desperate for depth but still wants all those RF powered machines from having it both ways? Create your power network with Rotarycraft's shaft power, and simply place that conversion block right in front of your RF machines, to convert the power on the last meters to something the machines can use. Voila, complex power system and widely-supported lowest common denominator power standard at the same time! That wasn't so hard, now was it?

Ultimately, what we need to realize is that as long as there are people who enjoy engineering complex power systems, there will be modders who make complex power systems. And if there are not enough complex power systems - or not those that we want - then it's up to us as players to encourage mature discussion and lobby for new and improved mods to fill that need, or maybe take up the torch ourselves if we possess the necessary skillset (or the time and means to learn them).

But it is never our task to flamebait or "shitstorm", as it were, especially not when we lack all pieces of the information puzzle. It's not our task to hate on people, least of all those who invest countless hours of their lives to provide a free product or service to the Minecraft community. It's okay to not like things, but it's not okay to be a dick about it. Don't attack the developer who picks up Redstone Flux; rather, encourage another developer to provide an alternative. Or practice what you preach, and provide one yourself.

There's no excuse for threads like these. None.

I encourage you to read this. It is a good take.

@Zenthon_127 makes a point about the API and the modset, something we should keep in mind. I disagree that the entire thread is based around this issue, but it comes accross like it. What the thread really was about was the lack of mods that don't follow the TE standard.

So after reading this thread, I am very confused what exactly most of the posters in this thread are even going on about. You don't like the power-transfer system of TE4. Yay. So where exactly was it stated that.....

Railcraft and Forestry are losing leaky power

You are now forced to use power storage

The old MJ playstyle is dead

Nowhere. None of that was ever stated in Covert's post. What has been stated is that Forestry and eventually Railcraft will use the RF API. That's it. We'll very likely still have leaky power, and if you can just choose not to use power storage absolutely nothing has changed whatsoever except you no longer have gates. And at this rate BC itself will probably transfer over to RF and then everything will be normal. In fact, if BC indeed transfers you could technically use every RF mod just like you would with the current MJ versions of Forestry and RC.

This entire thread is based around the idea that RF is forced to be lossless and safe. That idea is wrong.

@trajing replied with exactly that

Actually, it is in a way. We would have seen a complex RF mod by now, but the RF community will rip it to shreds with "RF is supposed to be simple." Before you say that they could just ignore them, the MC community seems to be comprised of two-year-olds who will fling shit at devs until they give in to their suggestions. FC and Reika are examples of this.

@Sm31415 put it well

This argument over power systems has been going for what feels like a thousand years, this time it is RF vs MJ, then before that it was people complaining over IC2 Enet changes, before that there were people arguing over MJ vs EU, same argument, different arguers.

There will always be people who want the plug and play of RF style systems, even if you changed the way RF is today into something that required thought, a new power system with that ease would appear.

Likewise there will always be people who want the thought requiring more complicated power systems. I myself am a great fan of Reikas Rotational power system, even if it does make me tear my hair out a little and I end up compromising by generating and using Rotarycraft watts, but interim transforming it to RF for transport.

The reason we keep having these same arguments, is because all these power systems are some damn similar, they all have cables, they all burn stuff and suck up solar power and hydro power, because that's what we know.

What I want to know, is where are the eclectic sci fi power systems? I mean we have interesting magical power systems.

Where is the optical cables delivering light to machines to allow them to move through the momentum of light with giant solar focusing plants and satellites you can launch for 24/7 light transmission?

Where are the streams of matter that get torn from the Earth and sent to machines so they might be directly powered by mass to energy reactions?

Where are the biological mods where you have to create blood and give it oxygen and nutrients before having it flow round veins to various organic machines, with ore crushing done by teeth and smelting done by blaze stomachs.

Why must we always burn coal to make some version of electricity to power something, why can we not be more creative than that?

Why are we still arguing about this? Shouldn't we just accept it by now?

6. Covert and Lemming's take

@CovertJaguar

So there is a bit of miscommunication and faulty assumptions floating around. I feel I owe the community a bit of an explanation. I'm going to provide that as a list of points:


SpaceToad replaced the API that Railcraft and Forestry were using (PowerHandler API|Second Gen) with an ubercomplex new API (MJBattery API|Third Gen). It uses Annotations extensively and adds dozens of new classes to the API. It also manages to abandon everything that enforced and standardized MJ's mechanics. Nor am I convinced that any effort has even been made to understand those mechanics fully. Buildcraft 4-5 is a very different beast from Buildcraft 2. And Buildcraft 6 (I've not touched 6 at all) is even more removed from what has gone before.

Legacy support for the old API is utterly broken and non-functional at the moment. Railcraft and Forestry can neither create nor use MJ correctly. This was brought to my attention Thursday and ultimately led to the announcement that sparked this thread. However, this decision has been expected for some time by those people closely tied to these mods.

I am no longer an active dev for Buildcraft and have no desire to debug it every time it breaks anymore. This is mainly due to creative differences with SpaceToad, including disagreements about the future of MJ and other Buildcraft APIs and features.

Migrating to the new MJ API would require a significant expenditure of effort. It would also require every machine to reimplement all the functionality removed from the API for each and every machine.

I now believe that both Railcraft and Forestry should be power system agnostic and not tied to or dependent on any specific mod. Nor should they become what I want to call a "Public Utility" mod, those mods that provide fully fleshed out power transfer systems. RF and EU are the APIs most widely supported, and hence the best ones to achieve this.

I'd like to see complex systems built on top of these APIs (or other promising ones). Modpacks could then build packs around these Public Utility mods. But this is not something I personally wish to pursue at this time. I encourage others to do so though.

This decision has been brewing in the back of my mind for a while now due to the previously mentioned factors. I was content to do nothing for as long as possible. But the status quo is no longer viable without damaging both Railcraft and Forestry. This decision was not initially very palatable to me because of long standing differences with KL and Co as well as a personal dislike for many of the core mods using RF and the super simplified implementations of RF they provide (even mod devs can have personal opinions).

That pretty much covers the why, now we need to cover some details that most people are getting wrong:

Redstone Flux IS NOT ELECTRICITY! Even KL says it's not. Railcraft Electric Locomotives will not be powered by Redstone Flux! Though, there may be a machine that could convert it to electricity. RF is the leading "Magic Kinetics" API as I like to call it, but EU is the leading Electric API. Railcraft will support other Electric APIs though as well, eventaully. The Rolling Machine and Rock Crusher will likely support both. Still working on the details.

Mods should never allow themselves to treat different categories of power APIs as equivalent without some kind of penalty (ie a generator converter block) for the transfer or a good reason (ie the machine doesn't need electricity explicitly, just a force to do work). Getting careless with this could be a force that reduces diversity in the modspace.

Perdition (loss) in machines existed for one reason and one reason only. To drive gameplay elements built exclusively into Kinesis Pipes.

Without those gameplay elements to add depth to the system; the perdition is 100% pointless. Conduits have no gameplay elements driven by perdition.

Most users never experienced any of this depth because TE and RF stepped in specifically to supplant it. I won't blame them for disliking what we were trying to do with MJ, but the fact that they maintained compatibility with MJ after creating a replacement for it was a low blow that never even really gave us a chance see if our way worked. In fact, it worked to make perdition appear completely arbitrary and pointless. Better had they broke cleanly and let MJ succeed or fail on its own merits. This was a major contributing factor to the tension between our two camps, though our tensions began long before that.

Perdition is a feature of MJ power systems, I cannot stress this enough (I'm talking to you KL, since you keep bringing it up). It has no place in a machine implementing RF and WILL NOT BE RETAINED. If a Public Utility mod wishes to add it, I can think of at least one way for it to work without requiring machines to manage it. But this has nothing to do with Railcraft or Forestry. If anyone is interested in creating a Public Utility mod with this feature contact me and I will explain how it could be done in a way that would apply to every RF sink universally.

In hindsight, it would have been better to build the perdition into the pipes feeding the machines, not the machines themselves. I take full responsibility for not recognizing this until just recently, and had I taken this route, history may very well have played out very differently (RF would have had no reason to exist).

And one final point.

MJ as we know it will likely not survive this. That's up to SpaceToad technically, but the rumblings are not favorable atm. I knew this when I made the decision, but it was in my opinion already being driven down that path and dragging Railcraft and Forestry along with it. This is essentially the rats abandoning a sinking ship.

Anyway, that's the nitty gritty details of the situation we find ourselves in. I'm not happy that it's come about this way, but I forsee a glimmer of hope for a far more diverse future in the modspace if Public Utility mods catch on.

@King Lemming

I haven't weighed in on this because I almost feel like it's not my place to.


But here's the thing: RF shouldn't be the only power system. Period. If it doesn't fit *thematically* in the mod, it shouldn't be used. It works in TE; it works for "Minecrafty" things. That was the entire point. I took Minecraft physics and ran with them. I do electricity for a living and know more about it than the vast majority of people alive on this planet, by an absurd amount. I didn't want to replicate that in Minecraft.


And while I know I'm repeating salient points from earlier in the thread, I'll throw some sentences out, since they carry a disproportionate amount of weight simply because I'm the one saying them (which is unfortunate, but how things go):


RF isn't electricity, it doesn't "fit" in RoC and GT. They shouldn't use it. End of story. Nobody should bother them to convert to it. It's a very simple API and it can be extremely optimized and customized, but nobody has really done it yet. TE's ducts will be slightly more complex in their next iteration, hence why they're taking a while.


Having said all that, I'm still going to call out @Strikingwolf for the FUD being spread around here.


Yes, if you check Opis in 1.6.4, you'll notice that TE's grid tick handler can occasionally go insane. You can cherry pick that and then cry that the sky is falling and that I'm a big giant liar. Don't do that. You are better than that. The bug is FMP in origin, it's limited to conduits (ducts), and has absolutely nothing to do with RF. I've seen your posts - you are not a stupid person, so please stop conflating an FMP-induced TE grid handler bug with inefficiencies in the API itself.


Thanks.


So in summary, it's a sandbox. Everyone chill. The API is whatever you make of it. Also, I'm getting a degree and no longer have time for this nonsense. Try not to burn the house down, thanks.


TL,DR: No. That wasn't all that long. Go back and read it.

Please read those. This entire post is about informing people without killing them. Read this. Read it. READ!

7. The rest of the points

@Reika and his take. Remember to read the original thread if you want more.

I do want to re-iterate what I posted in another thread:

Reika said: That is more up to the mod than the power system. RF tends to be regarded as simple because most RF mods are literally plug-and-play with little to no design and problem-solving elements, and are so flexible and tolerant of failure that there is literally nothing you can do to make it do worse than perform badly.

That said, essentially every major RF-driven mod follows the design aesthetic of "simpler is better", to where we have have a dozen mods which are literally so easy to use and so difficult to mess up that it almost feels insulting. Like holding-your-hand patronization.

Worse yet, in my opinion, is the result of this trend. The simplicity of these mods has made many players complacent, and has likely drawn in players who previously would not have played modded minecraft because they struggle with concepts like power requirements or basic mathematics. This then results in a veritable army of players who bristle when they try a mod not designed like that and something immediately explodes, or even just fails to activate. Mod developers, myself included, get very tired of logging in and seeing 50 messages, over half of which are people complaining about something that any reasonable person should foresee. Too often I deal with people raging at me because "I had no idea that I couldn't use lava to boil water"/"What do you MEAN I can't just use a DC engine to run a bedrock breaker! It should just go slowly!"/"OMG you're telling me that my nuclear reactor can MELT?!" or many, many more. Exacerbating the problem is that the aforementioned players who previously did not have the requisite intellectual skills are among the most immature and aggressive players in the entire community.

This spills over to the rest of the community as well. People tell me that I can be rude and blunt when replying to some bug reports and/or suggestions. What they fail to realize is that I had just spent the last half hour clicking through ten or more pages of the kind of crap I post on my "what NOT to do" section before getting to them. So when a mod dev gives you a one-word answer to a question or refuses to include a suggestion, it is very possible that you just had the bad luck of being read after a five-page dissertation on why the developer is an elitist jackass, why their mod should never have been made, and that they should give it to someone else.

Deftscythe said: I don't understand this mentality. Nowadays you don't have to have an MCF thread to get your mod noticed and distributed anymore. Make the mod, host it wherever, and post a feedback thread here(like Reika's suggestion thread). The moderation here is good enough that you're only going to get constructive criticism. Yes, some people out there will hate your mod but if you don't give them a forum, they may as well not exist.

I get many emails, YouTube comments, forum PMs, and posts on two threads from people infuriated by my design decisions. They are completely unavoidable unless you choose to entirely withdraw from the community, and that is a terrible decision to make. On top of that, even dedicated tech support channels often are polluted with this. Even my GitHub issue tracker has had people post things like "remove the machine failure" or "make engines not need fuel".

@SpwnX

From my view point Forestry, Railcraft and eventually Buildcraft will end up switching to RF.

BC would be the mod that would have control on how RF will be transmitted (since it is the one with the kinetic pipes), thus very likely applying the MJ mechanics of power loss, perdition and such.

Forestry and Railcraft would also keep their perdition on machines as usual.

The difference would be that MJ as energy api would be lost, but successfully replaced by RF, without ANY loss to the gameplay, only gains.

@ShneekeyTheLost with another post that simply cannot be categorized, yet is still brilliant

trajing said: If I have an RF mod that has machines with distinct advantages over alternatives, it will be added to a pack just for that and then standard, lossless conduits will be used.

That's perhaps your personal choice, but it wouldn't be everyone's. If someone preferred complex to plug-and-play, why would they put plug-and-play into the pack?

Reika said: You seem to be missing the point in that too many of the RF fans take it as gospel that RF 'should' be "machine A next to dynamo B" simplistic and that they quite likely outnumber those who want complex RF mods by a factor of at least ten.

I'm not missing the point, I am stating 'Mu'. It is a position on a different tangent. It doesn't matter how badly they are outnumbered. You see, let me share with you a little secret about modded minecraft: usership volume doesn't matter. You don't get money off of how many users you attract to your mod. You don't get anything tangible, in point of fact. It doesn't matter if it is the most reviled mod since PodzolToDiamonds or the most popular mod since NEI.

The argument is: "I don't like RF because it isn't complex". This argument is refuted. You *CAN* build complex energy networks using the RF API. People complaining about it being complex is a whole different issue and one that is, quite bluntly, irrelevant. People complain about Gtech and BTW. They still exist, and have users. People complain about IC2-EX, yet others play it. I don't understand why you are so worried about people complaining... when have they ever *NOT* complained?

And this:

Put a complex RF mod in the same pack with a simple RF mod and compare usership. I would say the results will surprise you, but frankly, we all know the outcome already. Players always gravitate towards the easiest option unless significant benefits exist for not doing so.

Again, 'Mu'. This is tangential to the argument at hand. If you want an enjoyable complex mod pack, why would you have any simple RF in your pack? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

Something I do want to point out: Being able to make a complex RF system doesn't equate to being permitted to force it down anyone's throat, just like being able to make a simple RF system doesn't equate to being permitted to force THAT down anyone's throat. If someone else wants to use a simpler RF system... more the power to them. That doesn't mean you have to, and it doesn't invalidate a complex RF system just because some, or even many, don't enjoy that play style.

Some people play Creative because they just enjoy building megastructures. And that's a perfectly valid playstyle. Some like playing UHC. And that's also a perfectly valid playstyle. There is no 'one true playstyle', any complaints about 'doing it wrong' are not only baseless, they're based on incorrectly applying 'right' or 'wrong' to the conditional 'playstyle'. It makes about as much sense as 'one plus one equals orange'.

@CarbonBasedGhost

I do think the argument should be left at this. Not one power system is superior. Every power system has its ups and downs and its own player bases who enjoy it. Plenty of people like to use a lossless not complicated power system because it makes the game easier so it can fit in with their time budget. Others like grind and complication so you can get more fun and play out of a world then you normally would. (Ex. Me and @Queue). Others are neutral and just like to have fun. Personally I like GT, EU, and RoC Power. Why? Well EU and GT power go hand in hand and both add a new level of complexity to the game making the game more time consuming, grindy, and fun. I like RoC because it has a weird feel to it that takes some thinking to understand and pays off. Why don't I like RF? Well, I don't really dislike it. It has it's places in mod packs like Agrarian Skies (which it fits in perfectly with) but I believe it doesn't belong in a hardcore pack as it is too easy. But strangely enough this isn't a trait of the RF power system itself, it is the trait of the uses the mod makers have found for it. Yes RF cables can be made lossless as easily as they cannot. But the modders who make the mods choose not to.

@ShneekeyTheLost

ShneekeyTheLost

trajing said: If I have an RF mod that has machines with distinct advantages over alternatives, it will be added to a pack just for that and then standard, lossless conduits will be used.

That's perhaps your personal choice, but it wouldn't be everyone's. If someone preferred complex to plug-and-play, why would they put plug-and-play into the pack?

Reika said: You seem to be missing the point in that too many of the RF fans take it as gospel that RF 'should' be "machine A next to dynamo B" simplistic and that they quite likely outnumber those who want complex RF mods by a factor of at least ten.

I'm not missing the point, I am stating 'Mu'. It is a position on a different tangent. It doesn't matter how badly they are outnumbered. You see, let me share with you a little secret about modded minecraft: usership volume doesn't matter. You don't get money off of how many users you attract to your mod. You don't get anything tangible, in point of fact. It doesn't matter if it is the most reviled mod since PodzolToDiamonds or the most popular mod since NEI.


The argument is: "I don't like RF because it isn't complex". This argument is refuted. You *CAN* build complex energy networks using the RF API. People complaining about it being complex is a whole different issue and one that is, quite bluntly, irrelevant. People complain about Gtech and BTW. They still exist, and have users. People complain about IC2-EX, yet others play it. I don't understand why you are so worried about people complaining... when have they ever *NOT* complained?
And this:


Put a complex RF mod in the same pack with a simple RF mod and compare usership. I would say the results will surprise you, but frankly, we all know the outcome already. Players always gravitate towards the easiest option unless significant benefits exist for not doing so.

Again, 'Mu'. This is tangential to the argument at hand. If you want an enjoyable complex mod pack, why would you have any simple RF in your pack? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?


Something I do want to point out: Being able to make a complex RF system doesn't equate to being permitted to force it down anyone's throat, just like being able to make a simple RF system doesn't equate to being permitted to force THAT down anyone's throat. If someone else wants to use a simpler RF system... more the power to them. That doesn't mean you have to, and it doesn't invalidate a complex RF system just because some, or even many, don't enjoy that play style.


Some people play Creative because they just enjoy building megastructures. And that's a perfectly valid playstyle. Some like playing UHC. And that's also a perfectly valid playstyle. There is no 'one true playstyle', any complaints about 'doing it wrong' are not only baseless, they're based on incorrectly applying 'right' or 'wrong' to the conditional 'playstyle'. It makes about as much sense as 'one plus one equals orange'.

@Qazplm601

[RF] is a nice API. it has nice mods. most of the mods are too easy for me, but to each their own. my problem with RF is that, as TE and others have begun using RF, (some of) the RF community has begun to expect all RF mods to be like them. that is why i think a complex RF mod would be hated.(by some) also, if you wanted to make your mod have "lossy" power in your cables(lossy machines would be pretty cool imo, and i don't see a problem with them) then you would need to have your machines not allow energy from non-lossy cables. i can just imagine the, well, shitstorm (XD) if (some)people discovered that you were not allowing them to use non-lossy cables with your mod. i agree, if you have a FC type attitude(not saying that is bad) then you will be able to withstand the hate, but many people cannot.


basically, RF is ok, but (some of) the community for it has grown into expectance that RF mods be non-lossy/easy/plug and play(examples) and would greatly dislike a mod that differs from their expectance.

and I am out of space

 

[buggirlexpres]

hope this goes over well. that is all.

awwwwww.... i just ralised i wasn't in the main post.... oh well. [/qazwantstobecool]

To be continued as this post is getting too long to fit. Please refrain from replying until I make the second post

GG M8s.

 

[Queue]

yeah thanks guys
also I have you guys quoted... somewhere....

 

[trajing]

GG M8s.

There's a delete button.

 

[Qazplm601]

yeah thanks guys
also I have you guys quoted... somewhere....

where? i cant find it.

 

[Queue]

where? i cant find it.

Grr I lost some progress cause of the 30k character limit

 

[buggirlexpres]

As for doing this again-

I think that it was an alright idea. A controlled argument, with a specific focus. You had the mods watching, removing all irrelevant comments, and you had it locked before it turned into too much of a Shitstorm. I think it was a great way to get some opinions without blowing everything up. If there's another drama-filled topic, I would be interested to see it in this medium again.

 

[Qazplm601]

Grr I lost some progress cause of the 30k character limit

ah, yes. *waits*

 

[Queue]

wow that was hard to get down to a mere 30,000 characters
So we have 60,000 characters of content. Enjoy.

 

[pancakemaster24]

After reading thought this i think someone should create a RF mod that is more complex just to see what the community would say about. I for one would play with it. P.S. @Queue I think this is a wonderful idea to deal with drama and I hope you or some else does this when more drama occurs.

 

[Omicron]

Great collection, commendable effort. This thread is much better than your last.

 

[Padfoote]

After reading thought this i think someone should create a RF mod that is more complex just to see what the community would say about.

There is one in the planning stage currently.

 

[Queue]

Great collection, commendable effort. This thread is much better than your last.

Thank you, that was the point


and @pancakemaster24 thanks as well

 

[pancakemaster24]

There is one in the planning stage currently.

I can't wait

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Kudos for locking down the old thread before the shitstorm became a cat 5 tornado.
Hopefully we won't cause too much more of a headache for our poor moderators.

 

[Golrith]

Nice summary.

To repeat myself:

"Perhaps it would be worth making a poll/discussion to identify what are the existing interesting power generation mechanics that are popular, and try and establish how it could be applied into a RF environment or as a new unique power system, since, nothing lasts forever, something in the future will "replace" RF."

The results indicate a strong trend for a more involved RF (or A.N.Other) system with mixed results on the lossy/lossless mechanic.

To get the ideas rolling (and I'm aware that there are plans), I'll repost this (as it got a few likes):

"In my blissful ignorance, I'd like to see a system where a machine only allows connection to one type of power with no conversion taking place on the wire/duct/tube that carries the power. But each power gen mod includes various power converters to convert to over power types, at a reduced efficiency (say 20% loss in the conversion). Ideal if you just need to power a single machine from another mod of your main power line, but painful for bigger setups, you'll either have to drastically increase the side of your existing power gen, or switch over to a native solution.

While this idea does hurt mods like EnderIO and Mekanism where their cables will pretty much convert anything to anything, it has a side effect that things get bland as you overlook other solutions.

Conduits should never have converted to MJ, but instead have a converter that knisis pipes run from. Converters are just basically "engines/dynamos" that take in a fuel (RF for example), and produce MJ at a specific efficiency rate.
As long as all converters are configurable, you could be really harsh on the conversion (80% loss) to force multiple power systems, or really friendly (0% loss - what we basically have at the moment) so one power system is no better then another. The conversion rate would then be down to server/pack makers, not modders."

 

[Queue]

Nice summary.

To repeat myself:

"Perhaps it would be worth making a poll/discussion to identify what are the existing interesting power generation mechanics that are popular, and try and establish how it could be applied into a RF environment or as a new unique power system, since, nothing lasts forever, something in the future will "replace" RF."

The results indicate a strong trend for a more involved RF (or A.N.Other) system with mixed results on the lossy/lossless mechanic.

To get the ideas rolling (and I'm aware that there are plans), I'll repost this (as it got a few likes):

"In my blissful ignorance, I'd like to see a system where a machine only allows connection to one type of power with no conversion taking place on the wire/duct/tube that carries the power. But each power gen mod includes various power converters to convert to over power types, at a reduced efficiency (say 20% loss in the conversion). Ideal if you just need to power a single machine from another mod of your main power line, but painful for bigger setups, you'll either have to drastically increase the side of your existing power gen, or switch over to a native solution.

While this idea does hurt mods like EnderIO and Mekanism where their cables will pretty much convert anything to anything, it has a side effect that things get bland as you overlook other solutions.

Conduits should never have converted to MJ, but instead have a converter that knisis pipes run from. Converters are just basically "engines/dynamos" that take in a fuel (RF for example), and produce MJ at a specific efficiency rate.
As long as all converters are configurable, you could be really harsh on the conversion (80% loss) to force multiple power systems, or really friendly (0% loss - what we basically have at the moment) so one power system is no better then another. The conversion rate would then be down to server/pack makers, not modders."

Dammit I knew I forgot a post. Sadly, I cannot edit it in because it is currently over 29k characters

 

[Golrith]

Dammit I knew I forgot a post. Sadly, I cannot edit it in because it is currently over 29k characters

No prob. Just felt that even though you've waded through all the muck, and made a nice summary, it ends on a feeling "now what". Now we brainstorm! It'll aid all modders who are up for the challenge.