Sorting Systems, Automation, and all that rot.

[Wraithflay]

Preface: I've always been much more magic medieval than anything else, so this is all effectively entirely new to me. So, I've been working on my SSP world (1.7.10) for a few weeks now and have gotten the shell of my final base complete (mage tower for those wondering), but now that it's finished I feel it's time to start moving in. In concert with this, I need to move all of my storage over, set up a tree farm, figure out a means of power automation and storage (probably), and start really making the base functional. Now, the relevant mods here are Railcraft, Iron Chests, Extra Utilities, Tubes!, Steve's Carts, JABBA, Flaxbeard's Steam Mod, and Ender Storage. Everything else of relevance is magic mods, so Blood Magic (unstarted), Witchery (early phase with all trees unlocked, no altar yet), Botania (super early game), and Thaumcraft (why won't you unlock, Eldritch tab?!).

The problem? I've never made a sorting system, I've never automated a power system, I've never used a quarry, etcetera. I had thought I'd read that barrels could pass items to barrels below them, but it seems that was a mistake as I tested it in Creative just last night to no avail. Basically, I've always done things manually and have never automated much of anything. I wish to change this, and the sooner I can figure it out the better.

I've managed a very basic 3 walls of barrels with transfer pipes running behind the barrels in sequential order from an ender chest to make sure an item must pass through every single barrel before reaching my other wall of Iron Chests, but it's not terribly attractive to look at and took forever to set up all of those transfer pipes. To this, I feel there must be a better way to set up a sorting system. I'd appreciate screenshots and mastery of others here, and remember: it's all new to me, so try to avoid the acronyms if you can?

As for power? Well, that Ender Quarry looks awfully tempting, but I believe the only way I can power it is with the generators in Extra Utilities unless it'll accept power from Railcraft stuff. Either way, I've not messed with that sort of thing in either mod before, so it's again something I'm largely lost on. I know people seem to like using steam boilers to generate their power, then store it somewhere, but I'm not aware of any batteries within Railcraft so I may be somewhat stuck there.

Finally, tree farms. I've managed to set up a basic functional Steve's Carts tree farm in Creative, but it is of course again lacking in automation. Eventually I would need to come back to refuel the cart (compact solar and coal engine), which is strictly speaking not ideal. I also discovered that the multicoloured block you place above your manager (name escapes me) resets its settings every time you close your world, so that thing isn't particularly useful to me.

TLDR: Halp I dont git tech! (that actually hurt to type)

 

[Omicron]

There's three types of sorting systems:

1.) Termination controlled: Basically what you have done. You have pipes that will insert into the first available inventory, and then set your inventories up in such a manner that only one valid choice remains for each item. Barrels obviously excel at this, as they only accept one item, but you could also use chests with filters. Extra Utilities' transfer nodes use the filter approach.

2.) Node controlled: You have pipes that include (or pass through) sorting nodes, such as Buildcraft diamond pipes or the legend that started it all, Redpower's sorting machine and its various replacements that have since sprung up. In these nodes, you specify which items travel down what path. Then you set up inventories at the end of those paths that accept anything that arrives.

3.) Virtual: You basically say "screw it all, I'm too lazy" and set up an AE system

What exactly is it that you don't like about your barrel wall, though? The plumbing behind it can be hidden until all that's left is the wall of front faces with all the items on it. If that's not your cup of tea, then perhaps rows of chests fed from below with filter-equipped Extra Utilities transfer nodes is more what you're looking for. But ultimately, any system of type 1 or 2 will require significant manual effort in the initial setup. That's half of the fun for a lot of players, though!

 

[Wraithflay]

There's three types of sorting systems:

1.) Termination controlled: Basically what you have done. You have pipes that will insert into the first available inventory, and then set your inventories up in such a manner that only one valid choice remains for each item. Barrels obviously excel at this, as they only accept one item, but you could also use chests with filters. Extra Utilities' transfer nodes use the filter approach.

2.) Node controlled: You have pipes that include (or pass through) sorting nodes, such as Buildcraft diamond pipes or the legend that started it all, Redpower's sorting machine and its various replacements that have since sprung up. In these nodes, you specify which items travel down what path. Then you set up inventories at the end of those paths that accept anything that arrives.

3.) Virtual: You basically say "screw it all, I'm too lazy" and set up an AE system

What exactly is it that you don't like about your barrel wall, though? The plumbing behind it can be hidden until all that's left is the wall of front faces with all the items on it. If that's not your cup of tea, then perhaps rows of chests fed from below with filter-equipped Extra Utilities transfer nodes is more what you're looking for. But ultimately, any system of type 1 or 2 will require significant manual effort in the initial setup. That's half of the fun for a lot of players, though!

Honestly, the only thing I don't like about the 'barrel wall' is that it's not terribly visually appealing. I am a terribly vain person and like things to look good, but otherwise the system I have set up -should- work in theory (once I calibrate all the barrels and chests, of course). It also uses quite a lot of pipe, but at least it's all hidden behind the barrel walls!

 

[Wagon153]

AE2.

 

[GreenZombie]

I have come to consider AE(2) a crucial mod in all serious minecraft packs, regardless of tech theme.

In my magic world I am using Thaumcraft & Blood Magic extensively to build my castle, towers, network of roads and so on. I use almost no tech, but at the core of my base I have a cellar with thaumcraft golems feeding charcoal (derived from golem driven wood farms feeding an infernal furnace) into a wall of AE2 vibration chambers.

The AE2 system now contains ~20k dirt, 15k cobblestone, 10k stone, 3k oak planks, 1,000's of zombie flesh, charcoal, coal, slime balls, wood fences, netherrack and so on.

If I was trying to store this in barrels and chests, no matter how ingenious, my build would be much MUCH smaller. It might seem cheating, but it enables levels of creativity otherwise inaccessible.

 

[Omicron]

The thing is, an AE system isn't really a sorting system, it's something you use instead of a sorting system. It's a single giant virtual chest with a text search interface. It sorts nothing unless you intentionally skip on ME storage drives of any kind and only use storage buses to connect regular inventories.

 

[GreenZombie]

And it operates at a scale that no other system can manage.

 

[epidemia78]

I usually just go with Applied energistics like everyone else. its a total game changer. But I used to use pipe based systems often. Heres a two pics of what I would do if limited to EU pipes, barrels and chests.

 

[ThomazM]

The reason I always loved Applied Energistics sorting and autocrafting system is that it makes progress incredibly faster without being cheaty, so I can get to what I actually want to do in less time. 'Cause, at least IMO, Minecraft's early game passed the point of being fun a long time ago, and specially in modded, where really fun stuff in end-game, most of the time, that is.

 

[Wraithflay]

I usually just go with Applied energistics like everyone else. its a total game changer. But I used to use pipe based systems often. Heres a two pics of what I would do if limited to EU pipes, barrels and chests.

If I might ask, I'm looking at the back of those chests and barrels and I don't quite understand how things would get to the chests on top? It looks like you have sorting pipes connecting to the chests, with standard transfer pipes along the barrels. Would the sorting pipes detect what's passing through below and make a pull request if the item can be matched into its resident chest? This is the stuff where I'm not quite sure how the logic works with the pipes, so I'm at a loss as to how to use more than one type of pipe within the same system, haha.

As for AE2, I have some problems with that mod at this point in time and will not be including it in my pack, and tend to agree that it's not a sorting system so much as an infinite capacity chest (within certain constraints, obviously). Great if you wish to use it, but as I couldn't make it function properly in my own worlds while testing earlier iterations of this pack, it's a no go. I take it no one quite knows what to do with the energy stuff or self sufficient tree farm?

 

[dothrom]

If I might ask, I'm looking at the back of those chests and barrels and I don't quite understand how things would get to the chests on top? It looks like you have sorting pipes connecting to the chests, with standard transfer pipes along the barrels. Would the sorting pipes detect what's passing through below and make a pull request if the item can be matched into its resident chest? This is the stuff where I'm not quite sure how the logic works with the pipes, so I'm at a loss as to how to use more than one type of pipe within the same system, haha.

As for AE2, I have some problems with that mod at this point in time and will not be including it in my pack, and tend to agree that it's not a sorting system so much as an infinite capacity chest (within certain constraints, obviously). Great if you wish to use it, but as I couldn't make it function properly in my own worlds while testing earlier iterations of this pack, it's a no go. I take it no one quite knows what to do with the energy stuff or self sufficient tree farm?

Things will get to the chests, though in random order. Transfer pipes don't have set paths by default. Unless you configure it otherwise with a wrench or using covers, the node will take turns at random when it comes to an intersection.

 

[epidemia78]

If I might ask, I'm looking at the back of those chests and barrels and I don't quite understand how things would get to the chests on top? It looks like you have sorting pipes connecting to the chests, with standard transfer pipes along the barrels. Would the sorting pipes detect what's passing through below and make a pull request if the item can be matched into its resident chest? This is the stuff where I'm not quite sure how the logic works with the pipes, so I'm at a loss as to how to use more than one type of pipe within the same system, haha.

As for AE2, I have some problems with that mod at this point in time and will not be including it in my pack, and tend to agree that it's not a sorting system so much as an infinite capacity chest (within certain constraints, obviously). Great if you wish to use it, but as I couldn't make it function properly in my own worlds while testing earlier iterations of this pack, it's a no go. I take it no one quite knows what to do with the energy stuff or self sufficient tree farm?

Think of each chest and barrel as a filter between the input chest on the left and the overflow on the right. Sorting pipes detect what items are in a chest so dont leave them empty or they fill up with random stuff. Same with the barrels, best to use them for things you have a lot of like cobble and coal. Check your overflow every so often and add at least one of an item to a chest and thats where it will go from now on. With some speed upgrades in the transfer node attached to the input chest, you wont have to worry about it taking very long to find its way through the pipes.

 

[Golrith]

I always like to store some stuff outside of AE. You never know when your AE system might go down from lack of power or whatever. All your resources are then accessible, and you are instantly thrown back to the "stone age" until the problem can be resolved.
Plus, I get more satisfaction from looking in chests then an AE system. Must be the squeeky hinge noise...

 

[GreenZombie]

I always like to store some stuff outside of AE. You never know when your AE system might go down from lack of power or whatever. All your resources are then accessible, and you are instantly thrown back to the "stone age" until the problem can be resolved.
Plus, I get more satisfaction from looking in chests then an AE system. Must be the squeeky hinge noise...

The squeeky hinge noise gets really old for me when Ive opened 6 chests in a row looking for something that I havn't found yet.

 

[xyzzy75]

I've been struggling with this, too. I am really, really resistant to setting up AE2 because it doesn't fit the theme of what I want to do. You used to be able to just hide it in a wall somewhere and it wasn't too obtrusive, even in magical/medieval themed builds, but now you need big fat cables going everywhere in order to do channel management. I don't object to the complexity, I object to the look and the size. (I also object to in-world crafting in general, so I don't do Thaumcraft or Botania unless it's part of a challenge map.) So I've been looking into alternatives.

So far I've tried Refined Relocation. It's a very, very simple system that I would describe as Steve's Factory Manager for Dummies. I've had one persistent bug (my Witchery filter gets untoggled if I reload the chunk) but it's worked pretty well otherwise. Basically you make RR versions of your storage items (iron chests mod blocks, JABBA barrels, vanilla chests, etc.) and place them next to each other. You add filters for each inventory. Then, if you place an item in *any* connected inventory, it will get sucked into the nearest appropriate location. There are also other blocks that allow you to interface with a machine remotely. A bit tough to explain, but basically you can set up all your in and out pipes (liquids, items, power) wirelessly and just have machines out that are connected to nothing but doing work. Problem is that there's nothing that allows you to access your entire network for autocrafting like there is in AE/Logistics Pipes. However, I have used the Super Crafting Frame in the early game to get around this. Basically I hit my chests/barrels, grab all the things, and set up frequently used recipes in the Super Crafting Frames I have on a wall. Right click the frame with the necessary blocks in your inventory (or in a chest, iirc) and you get the item. Then dump extras into the nearest networked chest and everything goes home to where it belongs.

Project Red has a Logistics Pipes clone in the works, but it doesn't seem ready for prime time.

Next on my list is Steve's Factory Manager. He has a new crafting block, too, that's a new mod. I have seen people on reddit completely replace AE's cables using this mod. I might be too dumb to do something similar, but I intend to try.

I also installed Router Reborn, which is a replacement for the Fz router. My thought was to continue to use AE2, but use Router Reborn to reduce the number of channels I require. That way I can hopefully avoid the fat cables everywhere. No idea if this actually works in practice.

 

[Ritt]

Are any of you using Logistics Pipes for 1.7.10? To me it's Minecraftier than AE, somehow, which I used a lot from 1.4.7 onward but failed to really enjoy using once the initial nerd joy of "yay, we have a server room... in Minecraft!" wore off.

Recent builds of LP come with such dire warnings that I've been too chicken to try them out so far. Maybe I should go do that right now.

OP, are you playing a premade mod pack or something you have created yourself? You mention having quite a few different mods. I would recommend you not start out with Railcraft to power your base, as it can seem rather fiddly if you are just getting started with the tech side of things. It's going to be simpler to use some generators from Extra Utilities. I really like steam boilers but they need a constant supply of water and fuel and they need to run 24/7 to really be efficient. Railcraft's engines output power in Minecraft Joules (the Buildcraft power system), but I think it's still possible to convert that power to other units using Extra Utilities nodes, which would enable it to power your Ender Quarry.

To make Railcraft power self-sustaining, you could make a self-sustaining Steve's Carts 2 tree farm, large enough to supply your steam boiler with enough fuel to run it constantly, with overflows going to JABBA barrels with void upgrades. You could do something similar with Extra Utilities Furnace Generators and that would let you hold off on the Railcraft learning curve until you are more comfortable with tech mods. Extra Utilities generators give you a lot of different fuel options and they will buffer quite a bit of energy, which means you won't really need a separate storage buffer to start working with them. They are also self-regulating, meaning they stop consuming fuel when their buffers get full. This is a nice feature when you are still figuring out how to automate things, or when you are playing in single-player mode.

Nothing explains the basics of these mods better than watching someone use them. There is a lot of really good video instruction with worked examples on Youtube, or if you have a friend come in to your game to help set things up, that can be even better, since you can talk about what's happening while it's happening.

As for barrels, what you read is true, but it was probably not mentioned that you need some kind of pipe or something like an Extra Utilities node that can "pull" items from the barrel.

I would recommend watching Vaygrim's sorting systems tutorial on Youtube, as he covers the sorting techniques from several different mods, including Extra Utilities and vanilla (!) Minecraft. He also has a video with some good coverage of the generators from Extra Utilities. I notice there are several "let's play" videos up in the past few weeks showing off the Ender Quarry, so you could perhaps get some ideas of how to use it from watching those. I haven't used it myself since 1.6.4, but the basics are probably the same. Grab a stack or two of fence, which is used to define a rectangular boundary for the EQ to operate in and place the quarry at one of the corners. Supply power from generators, at least a chest to catch the output, if not some pipe as well, maybe use an item filtered Trash Can to discard the rubble. I think the Ender Quarry uses quite a bit of power by default, so you will need to make sure you have enough generators to keep it going.

Since you have Thaumcraft and Blood Magic, you could also try out their mining solutions. The Arcane Bore is well-regarded by some here in the forums and the Rituals of Magnetism and Crushing are documented in Padfoote's guide, also in the FTB forums. The Bore is a really nice-looking piece of kit too.

 

[Wraithflay]

I've been struggling with this, too. I am really, really resistant to setting up AE2 because it doesn't fit the theme of what I want to do. You used to be able to just hide it in a wall somewhere and it wasn't too obtrusive, even in magical/medieval themed builds, but now you need big fat cables going everywhere in order to do channel management. I don't object to the complexity, I object to the look and the size. (I also object to in-world crafting in general, so I don't do Thaumcraft or Botania unless it's part of a challenge map.) So I've been looking into alternatives.

So far I've tried Refined Relocation. It's a very, very simple system that I would describe as Steve's Factory Manager for Dummies. I've had one persistent bug (my Witchery filter gets untoggled if I reload the chunk) but it's worked pretty well otherwise. Basically you make RR versions of your storage items (iron chests mod blocks, JABBA barrels, vanilla chests, etc.) and place them next to each other. You add filters for each inventory. Then, if you place an item in *any* connected inventory, it will get sucked into the nearest appropriate location. There are also other blocks that allow you to interface with a machine remotely. A bit tough to explain, but basically you can set up all your in and out pipes (liquids, items, power) wirelessly and just have machines out that are connected to nothing but doing work. Problem is that there's nothing that allows you to access your entire network for autocrafting like there is in AE/Logistics Pipes. However, I have used the Super Crafting Frame in the early game to get around this. Basically I hit my chests/barrels, grab all the things, and set up frequently used recipes in the Super Crafting Frames I have on a wall. Right click the frame with the necessary blocks in your inventory (or in a chest, iirc) and you get the item. Then dump extras into the nearest networked chest and everything goes home to where it belongs.

Project Red has a Logistics Pipes clone in the works, but it doesn't seem ready for prime time.

Next on my list is Steve's Factory Manager. He has a new crafting block, too, that's a new mod. I have seen people on reddit completely replace AE's cables using this mod. I might be too dumb to do something similar, but I intend to try.

I also installed Router Reborn, which is a replacement for the Fz router. My thought was to continue to use AE2, but use Router Reborn to reduce the number of channels I require. That way I can hopefully avoid the fat cables everywhere. No idea if this actually works in practice.

I seem to see Refined Relocation and Steve's Factory Manager a lot when I try to find others' sorting systems. Seems I should keep those two in mind next time I put together a modpack, haha. Folks seem to be quite fond of the two, so I should likely investigate when I can. I actually generally like the overall look of AE2's stuff, but like you I don't like to see cables or pipes running everywhere and always try to hide things in walls or other multipart pieces. Having said all that, I'm one of those weird folks that actually prefers to place limitations within my packs; I don't like having extremely powerful mods around, as it inhibits creativity for me, hence the lack of Tinker's Construct these days. Much as I like the mod, I see no reason to use other mods' tools while it's around.

Are any of you using Logistics Pipes for 1.7.10? To me it's Minecraftier than AE, somehow, which I used a lot from 1.4.7 onward but failed to really enjoy using once the initial nerd joy of "yay, we have a server room... in Minecraft!" wore off.

Recent builds of LP come with such dire warnings that I've been too chicken to try them out so far. Maybe I should go do that right now.

OP, are you playing a premade mod pack or something you have created yourself? You mention having quite a few different mods. I would recommend you not start out with Railcraft to power your base, as it can seem rather fiddly if you are just getting started with the tech side of things. It's going to be simpler to use some generators from Extra Utilities. I really like steam boilers but they need a constant supply of water and fuel and they need to run 24/7 to really be efficient. Railcraft's engines output power in Minecraft Joules (the Buildcraft power system), but I think it's still possible to convert that power to other units using Extra Utilities nodes, which would enable it to power your Ender Quarry.

To make Railcraft power self-sustaining, you could make a self-sustaining Steve's Carts 2 tree farm, large enough to supply your steam boiler with enough fuel to run it constantly, with overflows going to JABBA barrels with void upgrades. You could do something similar with Extra Utilities Furnace Generators and that would let you hold off on the Railcraft learning curve until you are more comfortable with tech mods. Extra Utilities generators give you a lot of different fuel options and they will buffer quite a bit of energy, which means you won't really need a separate storage buffer to start working with them. They are also self-regulating, meaning they stop consuming fuel when their buffers get full. This is a nice feature when you are still figuring out how to automate things, or when you are playing in single-player mode.

Nothing explains the basics of these mods better than watching someone use them. There is a lot of really good video instruction with worked examples on Youtube, or if you have a friend come in to your game to help set things up, that can be even better, since you can talk about what's happening while it's happening.

As for barrels, what you read is true, but it was probably not mentioned that you need some kind of pipe or something like an Extra Utilities node that can "pull" items from the barrel.

I would recommend watching Vaygrim's sorting systems tutorial on Youtube, as he covers the sorting techniques from several different mods, including Extra Utilities and vanilla (!) Minecraft. He also has a video with some good coverage of the generators from Extra Utilities. I notice there are several "let's play" videos up in the past few weeks showing off the Ender Quarry, so you could perhaps get some ideas of how to use it from watching those. I haven't used it myself since 1.6.4, but the basics are probably the same. Grab a stack or two of fence, which is used to define a rectangular boundary for the EQ to operate in and place the quarry at one of the corners. Supply power from generators, at least a chest to catch the output, if not some pipe as well, maybe use an item filtered Trash Can to discard the rubble. I think the Ender Quarry uses quite a bit of power by default, so you will need to make sure you have enough generators to keep it going.

Since you have Thaumcraft and Blood Magic, you could also try out their mining solutions. The Arcane Bore is well-regarded by some here in the forums and the Rituals of Magnetism and Crushing are documented in Padfoote's guide, also in the FTB forums. The Bore is a really nice-looking piece of kit too.

Yeah mine's a self-made pack, built from the ground up. Tends to be a hit or miss process, but with my ancient machine I need to be quite picky about what mods I allow into the pack or the whole thing just becomes unplayable on my rig.

On the tech part, it's honestly a very secondary system to the whole pack. I wanted steam level tech and magic, as I have a notable fondness for steampunk-ey stuff, though I can't really design for it visually so far. Practice and all that, I suppose! I've never quite understood what Railcraft had to offer overall, as minecarts and redstone contraptions were always things I ignored back in vanilla. So far, it's just a source of decorative blocks and an impediment to my making tracks for the tree farm (actually stole my rails from an abandoned mineshaft!). I've found it much easier to get involved with Flaxbeard's Steam Power, and would assess myself to be around mid-tier as far as its tech goes, but the steam in that mod doesn't appear to be compatible with Railcraft's steam for whatever reason. Bit of a disappointment, that.

I've actually watched Vaygrim's sorting system video! It's what gave me the basis of understanding to work out the logic behind my own system, though I appear to have underestimated the scope necessary for a sorting system as I just don't seem to have enough barrels. Next time I think I'll go with a tiered 2 or 3 floor room for it or something.

I learned how to craft the Arcane Bore just yesterday in fact, though the Eldritch tab continues to elude me. Killed the Guardian at least half a dozen times now, seen every warp message available, taken every bit of forbidden knowledge I could find... just doesn't want to show up. Bah. Anyway, the Arcane Bore has always seemed interesting in theory, but in practice it's not terribly controllable from what I remember back in 1.6. I suspect it probably needs to be connected to an energized node these days as well, and I've yet to set one of those up so I'm lacking in a magical power system for my Thaumcraft stuff. Infusion I can handle, nodes... still a touch out of reach. Perhaps I need to mount a bore to the ceiling or something and point it straight down? Never tried that before, but I think it's possible based on hazy recollection...

 

[Ritt]

I feel your pain regarding 1.7.10 and unplayable lag... are you using Fastcraft? It really helps a lot on my system.

I've been starting to assemble my own pack for 1.7.10 and it appears we're looking at many of the same ideas with respect to flavor and tech level. I too wish FSP and Railcraft used the same "steam", hehe. Railcraft was always a good "go-to" method of sustainable power generation for server play, and the extra types of rails and signaling systems and chunk loading devices it provides are super nice to have if you want to use minecarts for getting about or for logistics. We built a lot of railroads in back in the day on our vanilla server and often longed for Railcraft's many improvements.

Stealing rails from mineshafts is a time-honored method of bootstrapping a tree farm, I think.

Should you wish to compare notes on magic and steam mods, do let me know. I think I have just about settled on what I'm going to put in my next pack. Next thing will be to get the configs worked out.

 

[dothrom]

I feel your pain regarding 1.7.10 and unplayable lag... are you using Fastcraft? It really helps a lot on my system.

I've been starting to assemble my own pack for 1.7.10 and it appears we're looking at many of the same ideas with respect to flavor and tech level. I too wish FSP and Railcraft used the same "steam", hehe. Railcraft was always a good "go-to" method of sustainable power generation for server play, and the extra types of rails and signaling systems and chunk loading devices it provides are super nice to have if you want to use minecarts for getting about or for logistics. We built a lot of railroads in back in the day on our vanilla server and often longed for Railcraft's many improvements.

Stealing rails from mineshafts is a time-honored method of bootstrapping a tree farm, I think.

Should you wish to compare notes on magic and steam mods, do let me know. I think I have just about settled on what I'm going to put in my next pack. Next thing will be to get the configs worked out.

To this day, I don't think I've ever crafted rails for my tree farms. I've always pillaged everything from abandoned mine shafts.

 

[thephoenixlodge]

I have yet to actually get around to playing with FSP yet, (waiting for it to be added to the server I play on) but from what I've read, it isn't that its steam is incompatible with other renditions of the stuff, but that its steam pipes aren't regular fluid pipes like most other mods use to pump steam around. To this extent I think I recall reading that there is in fact a block in FSP that acts as an interface between the two piping systems specifically to allow usage of steam from other mods and vice versa. Unfortunately I don't know the name of said block, but surely it should be in the Esteemed Innovation Journal?