Plus+ Pack

[Whovian]

Okay, I'll admit, as Guswut pointed out, this probably won't serve its original purpose, but I'm sufficiently angry at Plus+ that I'm posting this here anyway.

http://pluspluspack.com

Okay, looking through their mods, they distribute at least Thaumcraft 3 without permission, likely tons more. Which is a copyright issue. But wait, they say. What copyright?

http://wiki.pluspluspack.com/index.php?title=Copyright

Now, IDK how divided the FTB community is about copyright. I'm hoping for this to remain civil, though even if this gets no replies, it'll already be uncivil.

Anyway, this is for discussion on the pack in general, I jus felt like ranting about copyright infringement to get that out of my system.

 

[GreenWolf13]

Hi, mod author here! What plusplus pack is doing is perfectly legal, and in fact, several modders have violated the law in attempts to take down plusplus pack. Issuing false DMCA takedowns is considered a crime, and has been committed by CovertJaguar (and probably other modders) on at least 2 occasions. I don't really agree with plusplus pack's methods (while it's not required [by law] it is polite to ask permission) but I do agree that they aren't breaking the law.

 

[Guswut]

Now, IDK how divided the FTB community is about copyright.

Hi, mod author here! What plusplus pack is doing is perfectly legal, and in fact, several modders have violated the law in attempts to take down plusplus pack. Issuing false DMCA takedowns is considered a crime, and has been committed by CovertJaguar (and probably other modders) on at least 2 occasions. I don't really agree with plusplus pack's methods (while it's not required [by law] it is polite to ask permission) but I do agree that they aren't breaking the law.

As stated, what they are doing appears to be perfectly legal. The entire issue is that, if what they're saying is correct, is that the majority of mod authors who claim that it is against the law to use their mod without their permission are, in fact, breaking the law.

The link that you included (http://wiki.pluspluspack.com/index.php?title=Copyright) details why, exactly, they do not need express permission and why they are legally fine.

Yes, let's keep this civil, especially when any of us could be wrong, so it'd be a good idea to be able to look back and say "Oops, I was wrong, sorry!" instead of having dug your heels SO deeply in that you're pretty much stuck forever because of pride/etc.

 

[Guswut]

Anyway, this is for discussion on the pack in general, I jus felt like ranting about copyright infringement to get that out of my system.

Ouch, sent off to the general forum. Well, so it goes. At least you tried, mate!

 

[Whovian]

Ouch, sent off to the general forum. Well, so it goes. At least you tried, mate!

Actually, I intentionally put it here, though, in hindsight, perhaps the "mod discussion" forum would've been a better place.

 

[Guswut]

Actually, I intentionally put it here, though, in hindsight, perhaps the "mod discussion" forum would've been a better place.

Ah, mm, I must have gotten the locations mixed up. That's what I get for using more than one window!

 

[Milaha]

I think at this point my personal opinion on the issue is pretty clear from the other thread but let me sum up anyway.

Goons are giant dicks. SOME modders are giant dicks. The community is horrid. We need to do *something* to reign it in. Mojang's alleged mod API and TOS update might do it, but who knows when that will ever come. In the mean time, Goons are exactly the dicks we need. Everyone will hate them, that much goes without saying, but the community will be better for it, just like it was when tekkit did it on a smaller scale (and even backed down eventually).

 

[Entropy]

Goons are giant dicks. .

As a goon, this is mostly correct. it makes SA all the better. I'm not sure everyone here hates me yet, considering all these "likes" I got today. I'll have to try harder .

 

[Guswut]

As a goon, this is mostly correct. it makes SA all the better. I'm not sure everyone here hates me yet, considering all these "likes" I got today. I'll have to try harder .

Giant dicks, you say?

 

[GreenWolf13]

OF course, it all makes sense now. Goons are really just creepers! And they want to hug you and be your friend and explode!

 

[MagusUnion]

They've already butted heads with IC2 dev team. Apparently, RichardG's solution was less abrasive than Covert's, but I'd still prefer to see more of the 'explosive bees' level of retaliation from dev's, which upon doing so they should also include the "You are solely responsible for all content you add to your Minecraft" clause...

Goons are giant dicks. SOME modders are giant dicks. The community is horrid. We need to do *something* to reign it in. Mojang's alleged mod API and TOS update might do it, but who knows when that will ever come. In the mean time, Goons are exactly the dicks we need. Everyone will hate them, that much goes without saying, but the community will be better for it, just like it was when tekkit did it on a smaller scale (and even backed down eventually)

You are entirely wrong. This community would be better if Goonswarm HAD NO INTEREST with Minecraft. You can make the argument that the community would be smaller, but that's a small price to pay compared to the jaded idiocracy they bring when they push mod dev's to allow mods in their controlled packs...

 

[GreenWolf13]

Really? YOu honestly think the community would be better without goons? Some of the best mods out there are made by goons. King Lemming, author of Thermal Expansion, is a goon. PowerCrystals, author of Minefactory Reloaded, Power Converters, and Nether Ores, is a goon. MachineMuse, author of Modular Powersuits, is a goon. You really want to tell me that Minecraft modding would be better without goons? Hell, if it weren't for goons, I probably wouldn't even be playing Minecraft still, much less writing a mod for it.

 

[Milaha]

I'd still prefer to see more of the 'explosive bees' level of retaliation

Wow... just wow.

that's a small price to pay compared to the jaded idiocracy they bring when they push mod dev's to allow mods in their controlled packs.

So... wait... you see redistributing free things through free channels where no one is gaining any money at any point, and without causing any harm in any way to the mod author as 'jaded idiocracy'. I do not even know how to respond to that. In part because I have no idea what you mean, could you explain what 'jaded idiocracy' means. I have a feeling it is just the words a rabid foaming at the mouth fanboy has randomly thrown together while in a rage, but I would love to be proven wrong and there be an actual reason why you would combine such disparate terms in such an odd way.

P.S. You will probably need to define idiocracy on its own as well, as while dictionary.com has a definition, none of the big 3 respected dictionaries do. (m-w, Cambridge, and Oxford).

 

[MagusUnion]

Really? You honestly think the community would be better without goons? Some of the best mods out there are made by goons. King Lemming, author of Thermal Expansion, is a goon. PowerCrystals, author of Minefactory Reloaded, Power Converters, and Nether Ores, is a goon. MachineMuse, author of Modular Powersuits, is a goon. You really want to tell me that Minecraft modding would be better without goons?

Writing a mod does not entitle you a factor of influence in 'enhancing' the image of the community. While one of those mods is a meta-game changer, the rest are discarded as OP messes of disorganize play. Also, because they don't explicitly promote the 'Technic' or 'Goon band wagon' on their respective MC mod pages, parading them as 'heroes of the Mod Community via Goonswarm' is a trite concept whenever you are faced with your own maledictions. If you are going to hide behind someones dress in order to make a 'valid argument', I'd suggest you make sure that dress isn't transparent...

you see redistributing free things through free channels where no one is gaining any money at any point, and without causing any harm in any way to the mod author as 'jaded idiocracy'.

The fact that you still believe in a concept as 'free' proves how childish you really are. Somewhere, someone (or something) had to apply effort in order for things to happen. This can be something as simple as a few keystrokes, or something as massive as a turbine generating the electricity to power the computer to allow the programmer to type into said PC. Mods are the efforts of their respective developers to change Minecraft in their image. Since they wish for people to have these deviations to enjoy the game, it is only fair that an equal level of respect be shown towards them in which to honor their wishes.

Course, I know respect is a very foreign concept with Goons, hence why you get up-in-arms when it comes to having to 'follow rules' (the horror! )

 

[Milaha]

The fact that you still believe in a concept as 'free' proves how childish you really are. Somewhere, someone (or something) had to apply effort in order for things to happen.

Please explain why simply because effort is exerted in the creation of something it can not be free. You seem to be conflating concepts here.

when it comes to having to 'follow rules'

Except that in this case the goons (and myself) believe that 'the rules' are not actually rules, and simply people with too much hubris making stuff up to the detriment of the community. Thus far the law has sided with the goons as well. How does that figure into your frame of reference, does your opinion change if mod pack authors actually have no legal right to restrict mod packs? Why or why not? Why would you willingly give them the right to hamper users ability to use their mods, for no reason other than stubbornness.

I have a ton of respect for mod authors, which is why I always make sure to give them credit. They have put the effort into creating something, I wish to enjoy that something. Respecting them by NOT using their product seems downright silly to me, if that makes more sense to you, I would love to hear the explanation. I respect them by using it, and giving them credit when I do. We boycott things we dislike or disrespect, not the things we do, I shudder at the thought that this has been reversed.

p.s. Still looking for a definition for 'jaded idiocracy' so I can properly respond. Since you chose not to provide one, I will respond to the dictionary definition (and using the dictionary.com definition for idocracy), which I would roughly restate as "cynical attitude".

You should be really look at who you are accusing of this. If anyone can be accused of this it is mod authors who wish to prevent people from enjoying their work for no reason other than a power trip.

 

[Hydra]

I think it's good that this is happening. Mod authors are throwing around BS about copyright infringement. Now a mod pack takes up that glove and tells them that in fact they have no legal grounds for their claims and that they're happy to 'settle it in court', which no mod author wants to get into.

Your copyright is only as strong as your willingness to defend it. And since there actually isn't a legal base to what they're claiming, I think it's good someone puts a halt to this BS.

 

[Zavvias]

Just a few loose thoughts:
- What about graphics/sounds in mods? Aren't they mod creators work? Are they derivative work? What when mod creator bought them from some artist ?
- Im wondering why make more modpacks/(outdated/copy-pasted)wikis/why split community into many diffrent forums/places? Isn't it better to unite them in one place (not specifying which)?
- I think cost can be calculated for unwanted distribution. The key here is maintenance of mod - more uncontrollable distributtion and oudated resources means more work for mod creator because of stupid, unrelated (id confilcts etc. is not modder fault) and "it has been fixed x versions ago" reports. Time is money.
- Intersting philosophical problem: what if someone made exact copy of pluspluspack but would be less controversive and more popular? In quick time it would suffocate original plus plus. According to posted links modpack also don't have copyright.
- Lastly it is funny to read that somebody respects mod authors but in few next lines describes he's/she's beliefs which are not so respectfull.

To sum up i hope that this stupid wars will end and we will have one united and great community. In my opinion mod authors have programming ways to prevent all unwanted distribution but don't want to make it just jet so dont force them to do so. Also i would like to apologize for my english as it is not my native language.

p.s. I'm not using any of peoples packs because simply i like making my owne for private use.

 

[Endyl192]

My 2 cents on copyright:

According to Mojang's Terms of Use:

Plugins for the game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, as long as you don't sell them for money.

https://minecraft.net/terms
And some quotes from the Copyright wikipedia page:

From Obtaining and enforcing copyright section:

In all countries where the Berne Convention standards apply, copyright is automatic, and need not be obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights.

From Scope section:

Copyright may apply to a wide range of creative, intellectual, or artistic forms, or "works". Specifics vary by jurisdiction, but these can include poems, theses, plays, other literary works, movies, dances, musical compositions, audio recordings, paintings, drawings, sculptures, photographs, software, radio and television broadcasts, and industrial designs.

From exclusive rights section:

Several exclusive rights typically attach to the holder of a copyright:

• to produce copies or reproductions of the work and to sell those copies (including, typically, electronic copies)
• to import or export the work
• to create derivative works (works that adapt the original work)
• to perform or display the work publicly
• to sell or assign these rights to others
• to transmit or display by radio or video.

So even if you consider a mod a derivative work of Minecraft, since Mojang declares in their terms of use that plugins for Minecraft belong to their authors, and if they meet some (not too high) originality requirement (which I think many mods in the pack easily meets) they actually fall under copyright protection. Thus any copying of such mods without the consent and permission of the authors is indeed copyright infringement.

And it does not matter if the pluspluspack on their homepage say that mods are not protected by copyright, nor does it matter, that mods may not be sold for money (but ads are ok) according to mojang's terms of use, nor should any monetary loss be involved for copyright protection to apply because by definition and nature of such works, copyright protection applies to them (even if some jurisdictions may not deal with cases when there is no monetary loss, but still).

But after all, this is a fight that mod authors and pack creators should fight, should they choose so. But it would be easier if pack creators could ask for permissions (and respected mod authors decline; maybe they would change their mind after seeing that fewer players use their mods because they are not freely copiable).

 

[MagusUnion]

So even if you consider a mod a derivative work of Minecraft, since Mojang declares in their terms of use that plugins for Minecraft belong to their authors, and if they meet some (not too high) originality requirement (which I think many mods in the pack easily meets) they actually fall under copyright protection. Thus any copying of such mods without the consent and permission of the authors is indeed copyright infringement.

And it does not matter if the pluspluspack on their homepage say that mods are not protected by copyright, nor does it matter, that mods may not be sold for money (but ads are ok) according to mojang's terms of use, nor should any monetary loss be involved for copyright protection to apply because by definition and nature of such works, copyright protection applies to them (even if some jurisdictions may not deal with cases when there is no monetary loss, but still).

But after all, this is a fight that mod authors and pack creators should fight, should they choose so. But it would be easier if pack creators could ask for permissions (and respected mod authors decline; maybe they would change their mind after seeing that fewer players use their mods because they are not freely copiable).

I agree. If modpack creators can't be bothered to respect the developers of mods in general, then those who do have set restrictions will probably end up not maintaining their mods. While this probably won't be the case for every developer, it does show that if the community can't appreciate the fact that someone applied their talents to add something to the game, then less people will likely spend their free time behind eclipse or in JDE to make said mods.

And for those who want to say 'well, they have no rights', then they are fueling the problem. Mod developers DO have rights and DO have authority surrounding their work. Trying to scam them out of the rights that are blatantly stated is a fraudulent attempt to trick mod developers to not fight for their entitlements. Neither side will go to court about the issue because, let's face it, the most a mod developer can do is screw with your world, and no court is going to listen to "he messed up ma game! he damaged me!" There should be consequences for not listening to the rights of these people, whether it be by explosive bees, acid oceans, or unbreakable blocks that are impervious to tools and Creative mode. Since most pack creators don't know how to code (or rather, don't want to have to learn how to use Java), it'll alleviate those packs who still wish to defy mod devs for whatever their trite reasons are. Is it harsh? Well, yeah, it's about as harsh as shooting somebody on your lawn. But if they won't leave peacefully, what other choice do you have (besides giving up, which is what they want )?

That may just be a "cynical attitude" to have about the situation, but this is what we are left with when the act of simple respect to others will not be followed...

 

[CrafterOfMines57]

Your copyright is only as strong as your willingness to defend it.

Or you know, your ability to pay for it. There is NO mod author out there willing to throw away thousands of dollars (assuming they even had it to begin with, a lot of major modders are either in college or have been out for just a few years) going to court over something they created for free with the hopes that people would not be dicks and adhere to their (in 90% of mod cases) simple policies for modpacks.