Energy Condenser thoughts

Discussion in 'Mod Discussion' started by Recon, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. Recon

    Recon New Member

    Before FTB, I played a lot of Tekkit. First on my own server with 3 other friends. Then later, on 2 different public servers. One public server banned all of EE because they said it was too powerful. The other server allowed it and had different restrictions based on rank and donations, etc. On the server which allowed EE, you could warp to a "richworld" dimension with a redmatter hammer and an alchemical bag, then go down to diamond level and collect absolutely ridiculous amounts of material. I collected 1100 diamonds worth of goods in about an hour one time. That was the last time I played, because it really gave me a strong sense of "WTF is the point".

    When we played on my server (before we tried the public ones), we had no restrictions or anything because it was just the 4 of us. We quickly discovered the Energy Condenser and our playstyle entirely changed. No more were the endless walls of chests full of cobblestone or other too-common items. When we played Vanilla minecraft, we had a ridiculous amount of overflow chests. I even made a whole storeroom in the nether to manage it.

    But once we played with mods that included EE, suddenly storage consisted of maybe 1-3 stacks of a particular type of item. Whenever we needed anything in quantity, the usual method was to go to the Energy Condenser, drop the item in the upper left slot, and chuck a couple diamonds or whatever into the "Magic Box" as we called it, and poof suddenly we had plenty of whatever we need. I built a whole huge house out of Nether Brick just by going to the nether and bringing home 1 brick from a fortress as a template.

    Another major change in our playstyle was that we noticed a complete lack of necessity to farm. When you can turn stone and wood into cooked beef instantly, suddenly all agricultural requirements go away. Mining also became just an EMC-hunt. No more did we look for anything specific underground or get excited upon finding something rare. Just scoop it all up, toss it in the Magic Box, and store everything in the form of Redmatter. We'd set up quarrys and pump the output into an enderchest, which teleports everything back to the base where the Magic Box would sit there and abosrb it all. No longer were any complex tubes or creative sorting and processing techniques necessary. The game was reduced to one and only one goal: The acquisition of EMC.

    We quickly discovered that just from this one item, about 85% of the rest of the game became redundant and inefficient. And it wasn't long after that when the game became fairly boring, and we stopped playing. We used to go on adventures together, venturing off into far away unexplored areas, and wandering around the labyrinth of caves fighting off monsters and risking falling into lava, on the quest to find more diamonds or other goodies. But all of that stopped dead in its tracks once we had a Magic Box.

    So what's this? The Energy Condenser wrecked the game? Yeah, I think it did. For us, anyway. I know this is a much beloved machine for a lot of people, and when I heard EE3 was getting rid of it, I was fairly ambivalent about it. I really enjoy the convenience of the Condenser. You can't beat its ease of use and how amazingly abundant ALL your building needs become. But at what cost? I think it comes with the cost of adventure, as in it kills the adventure of the game.

    After getting bored with the public server, I switched back to a single player game, and I had to decide whether I would allow myself to use the condenser or not. What I came up with was a rule for myself where I would only use it to convert lower EMC things into higher EMC things. That means if I need a whole lot of bricks, I can't just chuck a diamond in and get a castle's worth of bricks instantly. Gotta go collect dirt cobble etc, then convert it up. Likewise, if I need a diamond, I can sacrifice some metal ingots for it, but that usually comes at a high cost in metal supply then. But maintaining this discipline is hard. When you need something, and a machine is right there that can give it to you, its very hard to not take advantage of that. So I think its probably best that it won't be included in EE3.

    One thing I'd like to mention though, and its a tough situation that the Condenser solves readily: Many items in the game are unusually rare. Like ink sacs (I don't know why but sometimes I can search the ocean for ages and not find one squid). Or Blaze Rods, Ender Pearls, etc. Yet these are now ingredients in quite a few recipes. With a condenser handy, you only need to discover an item once, and then you have an endless supply. Even Glowstone can be very tough to get once you've harvested all the easy clusters in the nether. Without the ability to convert common items into these rare items, I've noticed that it pushes the search beyond the "adventure" point, where its no longer a fun search but a tedious one because you really want that writing desk darn it, and where are the dang squids? lol.

    Anyway, I thought I'd share my story on how one machine almost ruined the whole game for me. Since not using it recently, I find a whole host of other tools and contraptions suddenly coming back into validity.
     
  2. RampantPanda65

    RampantPanda65 New Member

    Pahimar is planning to change all of that with EE3. It's going to be much more balanced.
    I don't know if this is correct but I heard Energy Condensers aren't coming back in EE3?
     
  3. Recon

    Recon New Member

    Yes, that's correct. They are history. Which is as I said, a good thing. But something more balanced is going to be needed I think, for acquiring more of the rare items that are just really freaking hard to find in the wild, like blaze rods etc. Heck I wouldn't even mind some sort of lossy conversion system, where you have to pay extra (in time or material or both) to convert one thing into another. That might be a solution worth looking into.

    But yeah, I'm excited about the game being more fun without the Magic Box pseudo-cheating tool.

    Another tool which I'm wondering about is the Swiftwolf ring that lets you fly around like creative mode. On one hand I love that item, but wow it really removes the need for any other form of transportation.
     
  4. RivingtonDown

    RivingtonDown New Member

    Beyond the first few times I always kept EE2 use to a minimum with some very very strict self-imposed rules. No Collectors, no Condensers, Klein Star Ein (first tier) only, Destruction Catalyst only for use with construction, only a single MK1 Relay and only as a terminus for 1EMC items (much like you would use a void pipe to delete sand or something), etc... it worked quite well.

    I like the direction EE3 is heading. The only annoyance I have is how you have to "cycle" through things like dye color when transmuting on your Minium Stone. Would much prefer something like a directional transmutation the same way the Handsaw is set up in Redpower. Minium Stone in the middle and then a different color depending on if the dye is on the left, right, top, bottom, etc... same with wool, wood, cobble/dirt/sand, and the like.

    I'm looking forward to seeing how the rest of the mod develops. Also interested to see how Pahimar handles things like the reintroduction of the Divining Rod which I'm pretty sure he said he'd be bringing back in some capacity.
     
    Barbarian Kitten likes this.
  5. Recon

    Recon New Member

    Probably my most used item from EE2 was the Alchemical Chests (and bags). They're much cheaper than the Diamond Chests, and the extra capacity, along with Sphax's awesome texture for it was very nice. The divining rod was great too if you wanted to rapidly locate yourself some diamonds. I hope the chest comes back very soon, as you'd think that item would be easy to add.
     
  6. Narcisism

    Narcisism New Member

    I would definitely miss the Swiftwolf's ring. Mostly because I didn't ever really use any other forms of transportation before I had it, anyway. Rails I use for automating things over long distances, not for travel. So I always just walked everywhere. Except on oceans. I use boats on oceans.

    I DO think the Swiftwolf's should use more EMC to work, though. It's a bit low as it is.
     
  7. McMutton

    McMutton New Member

    I've read that the Condenser will be removed but something similar to the Transmutation Tablet will still be avaible . Furthermore there is some kind of cable planned to transport EMC (what would be the reason to do that, if you can't generate EMC more or less automatically? - otherwise I could just easily cary a few stacks of diamonds around with me to do the same job).

    Saying that I don't really think too much will change by removing the Condenser. (maybe the automatic creation of an item will be removed?)

    But I'm personally happy as long as I still can create worthless (good looking) items in large numbers to make my building process easier.

    I share the opinion that I would miss Swiftwolf's Ring, since it made building easier in a few places without building dirt towers. :D
    But that's a minor issue, I'll just get the jetpack for travelling and use more scaffolds.
     
  8. NosajDraw

    NosajDraw New Member

    Yeah, for me the biggest loss is the flying ring.
     
  9. slay_mithos

    slay_mithos New Member

    If I understand correctly, it will no longer be "equivalent" exchange with the standard stuff, meaning you won't be able to safely store all your matter and fuels in form of diamond or better.
     
  10. NosajDraw

    NosajDraw New Member

    Flying rings are a huge loss :( I'm looking for a forge compatible flying mod and cannot find any.
     
  11. aanthony3

    aanthony3 New Member

    There is the gravisuit IC2 addon for flight.

    Transmutation crafting like redpower, ie where the stone and dye are in relation to each other effects the result has been suggested but would be difficult from a coding prespective. Pahimar would have to write a new version of minecraft's crafting manager just for transmutation which would take a while.
     
  12. Enigmius1

    Enigmius1 New Member

    From my point of view, energy condensers were never really the problem on their own. With the exception of gems (ie. ruby, sapphire, emerald), there's nothing in the game right now (Tekkit) that I don't use. I do use uranium occasionally and if I were running a nuclear reactor there's no way I'd be converting it to EMC for anything else. I find it tragic that there are so many Let's Play type series (including a very well known one) that constantly refer to nikolite as a useless commodity, because I use it almost as fast as I get it. But that's sort of the problem is that youtube is bloated with videos showing EE and, in particular, condensers in a very narrow light. Virtually everything goes into the condenser ("...but save one of everything so we can condense it when we need it...") and world progression (ie. builds) stall when the resources run dry. The difficulty comes from the exploits (blaze rod machines, etc), blocks that don't scale appropriately (see: tungsten), blocks with bugged EMC values (uranium) and people with a skewed notion of what all is involved in a modpack like Tekkit (and soon FTB).

    The vast majority of players I see complaining that energy condensers ruined the game for them don't know the first thing about how to use support frames or, if they do know a bit, are restricted to basic projects like sliding doors. They don't know how to use redpower or CC computers. They don't know how to do advanced builds with railcraft. If they didn't have access to other people showing them in full detail how to set up a nuclear reactor they'd have craters all over their world or they just wouldn't have reactors. But they'll say they're "done" with the game because they've got quantum/gem armor and a rotary macerator connected to a BC pipe "sorting system".

    What I'll miss about energy condensers is the extremely convenient means of storing and exchanging common building blocks. I did a test with a custom-made excavating machine and 2 chunks (give or take) worth of blocks produced over 30000 cobblestone/dirt blucks. No energy condenser means lots of chests filled with cobblestone and dirt, and from the looks of things the EE option to "transmute" those blocks into something more desirable has been made pointlessly convoluted for the sake of saying it's "more balanced."

    Energy condensers didn't work for the masses because the masses just wanted to play Tekkit like a shortcut to all the things they were tired of doing in vanilla. And then when they were done shortcutting their way through the vanilla-style game and got bored, they pointed the finger at EE. For those of us who really found enjoyment in the advanced building options found in (FTB), EE and energy condensers were only harmful if abused.
     
    Laguy likes this.
  13. McMutton

    McMutton New Member

    Couldn't agree more... but I still hope that this is possible with the transmutation tablet (or the similar thing which is planned to replace it).
    I wouldn't mind paying 200% of the EMC value (or even more) to exchange my building materials thus removing the exploit possibilities. Minecraft is about creativity and the condenser/transmutation tablet is a great tool for it.

    Getting bored in Minecraft/Tekkit/Feed The Beast? Maybe you should play another game. Your highend armor doesn't finish the game (even though it is a nice tool in surviving). Minecraft is about creativity and nothing else.
    I still have a lot of cities to build before I get bored. I hope RedPower will be added soon to FTB again (Eloraam do you hear me?? I really depend on your great mod :D ... ), furthermore I'm excited about the new changes in Thaumcraft 3 I saw so far, all those mods just help to fill your builds with life and functionality.
    You might be mislead by the "Mine" in Minecraft... but did you see a lot of youtube videos of mining? Not really I would say... obviously that's not the real fun of the game (even though the challenge of finding materials may add to it for a few people).
    Saying that you're done/finished with the game is just saying that you've run out of ideas... nothing else. (not really meant to offend, but you might be better of playing another game if only a lack of ressources keeps you playing... bigger communities have rarely ever a lack of ressources even without any mod) .

    For myself I'm still exploring the possibilities of every mod in FTB (+ older versions of those planned to be in FTB) and I have to say that I need a lot more time to do everything I'd like to do.... and don't want always run around searching for new clay, marble, etc... (yeah not really the rarest or even expensive materials, but quite a pain to find if you want to do really big builds)
     
  14. ProfessorLotte

    ProfessorLotte New Member

    For me EE2 didn't kill my game. It allowed me, after a lot of hard work, to move past basic 'resource gathering' and into a different game which was actually building interesting things for the fun of it.

    But that was just me - everyone else on the server got bored and stopped playing once they'd 'run out of things to do'. For me it felt like I'd put in the work to earn my virtual God Mode and was into pure Creative territory, but for everyone else Minecraft is just about building wheat farms and "what's the point?" if you can just use a condenser?

    Of course the Portal Gun mod lets you move Spawners around, and if Soul Shards gets added then you can create mob spawners for Enderman and Blazes etc, so that, combined with Mass Fabricators, Forestry and everything else you will, after a long time and a lot of effort /possibly/ evolve past basic resource gathering. Maybe. I've probably just jinxed Soul Shards getting added to FTB haven't I?
     
    Jeza likes this.
  15. Jeza

    Jeza New Member

    This is very true. The EE2 items were not so expensive however allowed the player to focus on building more advanced and larger projects without having to worry about gathering enough resources. It was also a great way of getting rewards from getting rid of trash such as cobble (although one could jut use the recycler). I will miss the fact that I can no longer spend ages designing and comparing designs of farms to generate the most amount of EMC per tick.
     
  16. Maximuscr31

    Maximuscr31 New Member

    EE2 was the devil for a server owner. It had too many over powered items that could bypass world guards and protection. Also you had people constantly making emc farms incorrectly that constantly lagged the server. It was nearly impossible to have it and be a mod/admin and still get to play. Not only that everyone borrowed 1 of each item and then just put them in condensors. It was no different than playing creative with the ability to bypass world guards. Seriously it was ridiculous. It should have never been put in place. It would have been easier and less stress on the server if they were put into creative mode vs them building emc farms.
     
  17. Jeza

    Jeza New Member

    Maximuscr31: Sorry I only have experience of EE in smp.
     
  18. Vauthil

    Vauthil New Member

    For the "OMG no Swiftwolf's" people: there will be a flight item in EE3. They're the Boots of the Direwolf. Boots of the Swiftwolf, on the other hand, will be faster run speed. =)
     
  19. Recon

    Recon New Member

    For anyone concerned about what to do with all your excess cobble without the condenser, feed it into recyclers to make scrap, and then use scrap with IC2 energy to make UU Matter. From that you can craft heaps of useful things. By no means is there a problem with "too much excess cobble".
     
  20. Meeko011

    Meeko011 New Member

    watch direwolf20's videos and you will see plenty of fun things that dont need condensers. In thaumcraft theres a bit of transmutation and you can use gravisuit to fly. Learn lua and make checkers with turtles. Soul shards is not too op because you have to kick 1000 mobs to get tier 5 or is that to level from 4 to 5? you have to kill tons of mobs for it. In ee you can use void ring whihc is black hole band/gem of eternal density in an alchemical bag and right click once with morning star on full power then you get stacks of diamonds. In season 5 Direwolf20 had 80 stacks of iron but no condensers he id it using frames and exporing new possibilities the reason you're bored using condensers is because you don't have a need to make anything else no machines no nothing cause you just make flower factorys and get everything
     

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