before I put this this in a bug thread... BC lasers

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KirinDave

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Jul 29, 2019
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The nasty trick is that powerPerdition occurs on the wooden pipe interface alone (and, obviously, adds up rather quickly), making it very tricky to work around even by completely removing consumers from the network. Turning engines off completely, having multiple small networks, and then only putting in enough total energy to complete a batch of work, is the only real way to avoid losses.



Those are all really hard to do automatically. I wonder if the supposed policy of not including objects from BC submods means they expect you to use Additional Buildcraft Objects to make this work? It has both power switch pipes and power diode pipes which are really required to do that properly unless (and this is not unlikely) there are new mechanical changes to buildcraft power I don't know about.
 

esotericist

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Jul 29, 2019
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This is untrue. They cannot turn back on while cooling down, and they do have an efficiency curve.

Re: Efficiency, as far as I've been able to determine, the 'ramp up' for engines (which are not redstone engines, which work off of different rules) is only a change in frequency of power distribution. As an engine is on longer, the interval between power events grows shorter, but less power is delivered at each event.

The effective power-per-tick is constant. The power-per-stroke and frequency-of-stroke are what change (and they share an inverse relationship). There is no overall variation in efficiency (even though it looks like there should be).
 

gattsuru

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May 25, 2013
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Those are all really hard to do automatically.
Eh... I'm not so sure, especially in the modern BuildCraft+Forestry+RailCraft environment. Building a biofuel loop and a lot of on-demand engines isn't trivial, but the trickiest part of it involves getting redstone to behave properly. Of course the Big Dumb Boiler object really only sees this as a flat percentage nerf.

It's expensive, because doing anything at all with gates costs a ridiculous amount of energy and time and too many diamonds to start up. My big complaint is the classical one : even with how clearly some BuildCraft devices show their power state, it's /incredibly/ hard to know what a device will consume without having built and tested it, and the change to the powerProvider mechanic makes this harder to do. If I can not tell how many engines are needed in-game to fully power a network without building that network and hooking it up to a Redstone Energy Cell, no amount of other good or bad design really matters.
I wonder if the supposed policy of not including objects from BC submods means they expect you to use Additional Buildcraft Objects to make this work? It has both power switch pipes and power diode pipes which are really required to do that properly unless (and this is not unlikely) there are new mechanical changes to buildcraft power I don't know about.
I don't know that they'd really help, excepting things like the extreme power draw on Lasers. The connection between the engines and the pipes is as much an issue as the connection between the pipes and the consumers.
 

KirinDave

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Eh... I'm not so sure, especially in the modern BuildCraft+Forestry+RailCraft environment. Building a biofuel loop and a lot of on-demand engines isn't trivial, but the trickiest part of it involves getting redstone to behave properly. Of course the Big Dumb Boiler object really only sees this as a flat percentage nerf.

All this is assuming you don't just build a billion boilers. My observation is that the ecosystem is kinda Forestry dependent.


I don't know that they'd really help, excepting things like the extreme power draw on Lasers. The connection between the engines and the pipes is as much an issue as the connection between the pipes and the consumers.

You can do a has-work trigger on the machines on the power supplier pipe, then trace pipe wire down to a split point for that network and cut the power. This would defeat the power perdition problem (read: "pee to the three").
 

CovertJaguar

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The nasty trick is that powerPerdition occurs on the wooden pipe interface alone (and, obviously, adds up rather quickly), making it very tricky to work around even by completely removing consumers from the network. Turning engines off completely, having multiple small networks, and then only putting in enough total energy to complete a batch of work, is the only real way to avoid losses.

If by quickly, you mean it takes two days to drain what an engine produces in 20 seconds, then sure.... Not how I would define it, but hey... math sucks right?
 

gattsuru

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May 25, 2013
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If by quickly, you mean it takes two days to drain what an engine produces in 20 seconds, then sure.... Not how I would define it, but hey... math sucks right?
I meant in terms of the connections between twenty-plus engines and a conductive pipe system. The per-second cost isn't very severe when considered in terms of a single engine, but BuildCraft power assumes dozens of engines. Apologies.

That said, that's not the behavior I'm seeing. In informal testing, each Conductive Power Pipe seems to consume two MJ every ten seconds or so. Combustion Engine with fuel at 20 seconds gives 2400 MJ, or about three and a third hours for the wooden pipe interface to consume.

Running with BuildCraft 3.7.2, rather than anything built from the GitHub source, if that's the problem. Haven't tried to do it by math; I can't figure out what any Forge documentation on what GetWorldTime returns.
 

Ako_the_Builder

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Not read all the thread so apologies if this solution was already offered:

redstone energy cell set to redstone enabled,high - cobble structure pipe with gate set to work scheduled, redstone signal - assembly table on top of the gate.

This only puts power into your lasers when they have work.
 
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DREVL

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Jul 10, 2013
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Not read all the thread so apologies if this solution was already offered:

redstone energy cell set to redstone enabled,high - cobble structure pipe with gate set to work scheduled, redstone signal - assembly table on top of the gate.

This only puts power into your lasers when they have work.
I would like to think that would work. I found a solution that I prefer a while back. You definitely have to put in a REC along the line before the lasers to act as a circuit breaker. But instead of automating it, I just have a switch on the REC for when I want it being used or not. Thanks though.
 

CovertJaguar

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Jul 29, 2019
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I guess I will have to try building it. I suspect this does not work even a little bit because the "power requested" signal and subsequent redstone updates will propagate to the engines faster than power can feed through the BC network to satisfy it.
No I appreciate that. I just do not think the proposed build will work for a network of reasonable size.


I've tested the system quite extensively and it works beautifully for shutting down unneeded engines. It maintains only those engines needed to meet the current power demands. Yes idle engines will turn on for a few seconds every once in a while to top off the buffer in the wooden pipe, but that's ok. Admittedly Combustion Engines are not the most responsive engines I know, but this works equally well with most other types of engines. It even makes sense to use the new triggers on RC Steam Engines, because by turning off the Engine you reduce the Steam usage. Steam that can then be used elsewhere, either to sent to a Turbine, stored in a Tank or to charge Steam Traps.

And you asked for a PLAN, well the PLAN is simply to make Buildcraft Power sufficiently different from IC2 power that it must be approached with a completely different mindset. Power is ephemeral, you either use it, or loose it. Building logic into localized power nets is encouraged. No work for your machines at the moment? Shut off the engines using gates and pipe wire. If intricate logic isn't your cup of tea, over engineering your power plant is also a viable option if you don't mind a little waste. And if you are somewhere in the middle, you can use the Power Requested triggers for a dynamic system that responds to demand and is less wasteful than running all the time, but more wasteful than shutting off the engines entirely. Personally, the fact that you actually have to think about which approach best fits your playstyle is amazing. As opposed to IC2 power which is basically "one size fits all" and boils down to: build generators, build machines, if power needed less than power available, build storage (repeat).
 

tggt00

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GUYS I HAVE THIS PROBLEM TOO I READ ALMOST THE WHOLE POST AND DIDNT GET WHAT TO DO!!!!!!! HELP PLEASE!!! THE LASERS DRAINING LIKE 100 fu**ING MJ/T!!!
 

Staxed

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GUYS I HAVE THIS PROBLEM TOO I READ ALMOST THE WHOLE POST AND DIDNT GET WHAT TO DO!!!!!!! HELP PLEASE!!! THE LASERS DRAINING LIKE 100 fu**ING MJ/T!!!


That is because it's a feature, not a bug...there is no way to "fix" it...though there are solutions in the thread to make your machines only use power when needed, read the thread again.

Oh, and see that key to the left of your "A" key, and above left "Shift", yeah...that's your Caps Lock key, press that please ;)
 
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Siro

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GUYS I HAVE THIS PROBLEM TOO I READ ALMOST THE WHOLE POST AND DIDNT GET WHAT TO DO!!!!!!! HELP PLEASE!!! THE LASERS DRAINING LIKE 100 fu**ING MJ/T!!!

Put a redstone energy cell or multiple redstone energy cells separating your power from your lasers. Wire the energy cells together to a lever. Turn off the cells when you don't need the lasers. Good luck.

To alleviate the problem of not reading whole posts, I have put this sentence here.
 

MigukNamja

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Jul 29, 2019
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We'll have to see what an updated TE looks like before we can sum up 1.6, but for 1.5.2, it seems TE is not entirely in lock-step with the "always on, power always draining" philosophy.
You have:
  • Lossless Energy Conduits (that store energy no less !)
  • Processing machines that draw no idle power and even have a decent-size internal power buffer
  • RECs that store amazing early-game power and whose output can be completely shutoff with a redstone
  • It own Steam Engine ! Which, at (now) 4 MJ/t, provides a nice early-into-mid-game on-demand power setup and non-exploding alternative to the Combustion Engine
  • Liquid Tesseracts that can provide liquid to remote bases (Ender Tanks do the same, mind you)
One can also mitigate/smooth out the Hobbyists Engine if you attach a REC to it or else use it to charge the internal buffers of the TE machines.
But, yes, BC without TE is indeed geared towards relying upon a renewable fuel source (tree farm, etc.,.) for mid-into-late-game MJ production. The oil-rich biomes help a lot, though. In my current playthrough, I was lucky enough to find the "Desert Oil Field Biome" page fairly early on.
 

KirinDave

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As opposed to IC2 power which is basically "one size fits all" and boils down to: build generators, build machines, if power needed less than power available, build storage (repeat).


I've been a vocal critic of IC2's power system for a long time, but I think you're being incredibly unfair with this statement. Especially given that a LOT of smart work is going into IC2's power progression in the experimental branch. Thunderdark and team have figured out how to motivate nuclear reactors (more MV usage combined with free energy after many nuke cycles) without making them easier, which is the best thing that could possibly happen.

What's going to happen is either the buildcraft team can sell this change to the userbase, or other modders are going to come along with engines that are substantially higher power output or MJ-Solar-to-offset-power-perdition. And if people find your current system onerous, it's not going to be labeled "OP". This is exactly what happened with Thermal Expansion and power transport, and I'm not really sure why the BC team doesn't think it'll happen again.
 

MigukNamja

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Anyone know what these do in Unleashed 1.5.2 config/buildcraft/main.conf ?

Code:
S:power.framework=buildcraft.energy.PneumaticPowerFramework
B:power.usePipeLoss=true

For the first, I searched github, and there seem to be some alternatives, like:

  • RedstonePowerFramework
  • SimplePowerFramework
  • WirelessPowerFramework
However, this was just a cursory search on github. I have *not* dug further to see if these are actually in BC or Unleashed 1.5.2 . These may be people's (semi-)private, not-yet-published mods.

As for power.usePipeLoss, *this* looks promising. Not an entire "fix", but it might bring it closer to TE Energy Conduits:

Code:
pipeLoss.comment = "Set to false to turn off energy loss over distance on all power pipes";
 

MigukNamja

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Jul 29, 2019
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...engines that are substantially higher power output...

Exactly, like DC Force Engines. 16MJ/t is not that difficult and 8MJ/t is possible just a few hours into the game, all with no ramp-up/forced cooldown/exploding mechanics. TE Steam Engines are similar, but at lower power output levels. Granted, I don't agree with 8MJ/t starter and 16MJ/t for so little effort/thinking/planning, but it is what it is and there's no configs to change it.

This is exactly what happened with Thermal Expansion and power transport, and I'm not really sure why the BC team doesn't think it'll happen again.

Indeed, and TE is just a great mod overall. Besides all the great stuff TE added like configurable output faces and name labels for teleporting liquids, items, and energy, they "fixed" many of the not-quite-so-fun mechanics of BC, like exploding and mysteriously lossy pipes and machines consuming energy when idle.
 

immibis

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Jul 29, 2019
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Anyone know what these do in Unleashed 1.5.2 config/buildcraft/main.conf ?

Code:
S:power.framework=buildcraft.energy.PneumaticPowerFramework
B:power.usePipeLoss=true
IIRC both are now unused.
power.framework used to be for setting alternative power frameworks, as in Buildcraft 1 where everything was triggered by a redstone signal.
usePipeLoss used to do exactly what it sounds like, removing the 1%/0.1%-per-pipe loss if set to false.
 

CovertJaguar

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Jul 29, 2019
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Hah, there is no way in hell that usePipeLoss=false ever made pipes lossless. Once I actually started looking at the code, there was so many leaks I'm amazed power got anywhere.