before I put this this in a bug thread... BC lasers

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immibis

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Jul 29, 2019
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Immibis you already know the answer to that. Don't ask loaded questions. Buildcraft has a policy of not incorporating key items from sub-mods. If Flow wanted to add the Insertion Pipe to BC, he could. Besides the Diamond Pipe can function identically for 90% of all situations.
I never heard of that policy.
Krapht said no because Thermal Expansion has them, but Thermal Expansion seems more like a competitor than a submod, and denying features because your competitor has them seems pretty self destructive.

Also what was loaded about my question?
 

KirinDave

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Does buildcraft have submods? The license is such that someone could just rip pipes out of BC, include them into their own mod, and claim independence, right?

Seems like a more accurate description would be that many mods have buildcraft dependencies?
 

SpitefulFox

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Centrifuges appear to be sucking up "idle power" now. Should I just keep all non-TE/MFR machines on a separate circuit now? >_<
 

gattsuru

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Centrifuges appear to be sucking up "idle power" now. Should I just keep all non-TE/MFR machines on a separate circuit now? >_<
Forestry's Multifarm machines are set to have no passive power draw. Other than that, yes, you'll want to have discrete networks, or assume 1 MJ/T idle draw per machine.
 

SpitefulFox

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That's... a massive punch in the junk for players who don't have their "unlimited powaaaah" systems set up yet. -_-
 

Poppycocks

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That's... a massive punch in the junk for players who don't have their "unlimited powaaaah" systems set up yet. -_-
Drawbridges are great for connecting/disconnecting a battery of machines to/from power.

You could of course simply use a REC, but I'd kinda need 10 REC's to connect one such battery of my machinery, so I decided to use that instead.

Works like a charm, looks great.
 

rymmie1981

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For clarity, what exactly do you mean by 'drawbridges'?

TiC drawbridges. They hold an inventory of blocks and deploy them in a straight line when powered by redstone. Removing the power causes them to retract. You can literally make drawbridges and gates and mining platforms, etc.

What Poppycocks is talking about is putting a drawbridge with a single redstone pipe/energy conduit/IC2 cable next to a power line. Flip a switch, and the power line is connected, and the machines receive power. Flip the switch off, and the drawbridge pulls the pipe/whatever back and disconnects the power to that group of machines. It's pretty awesome and also much better disconnector than dark cables for AE networks.
 

esotericist

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TiC drawbridges. They hold an inventory of blocks and deploy them in a straight line when powered by redstone. Removing the power causes them to retract. You can literally make drawbridges and gates and mining platforms, etc.

... I had no idea Tinker's Construct had this functionality. That's .. fascinating. And a strange place to put it.
 

rymmie1981

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... I had no idea Tinker's Construct had this functionality. That's .. fascinating. And a strange place to put it.

Not really. If you read the very first part of the TiC post on MC Forums, it says that TiC is being designed with adventure maps in mind. The idea behind drawbridges fits incredibly well with that.
 

KirinDave

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Drawbridges are great for connecting/disconnecting a battery of machines to/from power.

You could of course simply use a REC, but I'd kinda need 10 REC's to connect one such battery of my machinery, so I decided to use that instead.

Works like a charm, looks great.


It is too bad one must resort to such shenanigans to cut power. I think their goal is to make you have many small independent networks rather than one big one. Which is totally at odds with how the entire ecosystem has evolved over time. So like... yeah. I wish CovertJaguar or someone close to the team could tell us what the actual design intent is with these changes.

I do sorta wonder if machines actively requesting power will get priority over machines that do not. I suspect it cannot be the case given the way BC power pipes work.
 

Omicron

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CovertJaguar told me that "if you don't have Buildcraft engines running constantly you're doing it wrong". So the design intent is to simply throw more power at it. That more or less puts the ridiculous amount of oil you get in the newer Buildcraft versions into perspective; it's there so you can simply keep your combustion engines running all the time.

Imagine for a moment a world without Redstone Energy Cells. Buildcraft power has always been likened to air pressure; in fact, it is even referenced internally as "PneumaticPowerNetwork". Now obviously it doesn't work that way - in the end, MJ is still transferred in discrete energy units like EU, and Thermal Expansion even made it storable like EU. Now CJ wants to move Buildcraft away from that idea again. If you just think of it as "keeping the pressure up in the pipes", you get a rough idea of what it's supposed to be like.

I still don't like this hybrid system. As it is, we have an energy network that still behaves like EU under the hood but makes the user jump through hoops to use it by pretending to be something else. If we actually had a pneumatic system, with a fully functioning pressure simulation, that would interest me greatly. You could build a great system in which specific machines not only had a certain "air consumption" (or whatever you want to call it), but would also require a certain minimum pressure to run at all. You could have machines with a high pressure requirement that actually consume very little, or machines with low requirements that nevertheless chew through a lot of "air" (Forestry centrifuge comes to mind). Conductive pipes would no longer have throughput limits, but rather pressure limits (and pipes could blow up by putting too much pressure into them). You'd need strong pipes for machines like the quarry, which would require enormous pressure to move its gigantic digging arm. Heck, you could even scale the pressure requirement by quarry size. Or a pump's requirements by the type of liquid and/or the elevation difference. So many options! It would completely change the way you play with Buildcraft, and it would be nothing like any other power system we have yet.

Heck, maybe I'll write this up in more detail and submit it as a proposal. It's probably never going to happen though, because it completely breaks compatibility with the existing system. And I bet someone else will come and complain that it uses 1% more CPU cycles for the physics simulation or something, and therefore is the devil itself and will make everything completely unplayable because of lag.
 

cynric

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CovertJaguar told me that "if you don't have Buildcraft engines running constantly you're doing it wrong". So the design intent is to simply throw more power at it. That more or less puts the ridiculous amount of oil you get in the newer Buildcraft versions into perspective; it's there so you can simply keep your combustion engines running all the time.

That is very unfortunate, because for me the dynamic system that thermal expansion introduced was really fun and made me use the buildcraft MJ system. Keeping everything on and wasting resources only really works with unlimited energy loops (treefarms, infinite oil/lava loops or whatever is available at the time) and preferably boilers to make it somewhat efficient, however that only works for massive central builds and isn't that great for outposts with just a few machines, a redstone energy cell and a combustion engine (possibly even refilled by hand) or similar setups.

So I guess I have to change my outposts to be manually switched on, use a lot more gates or find a mod that provides a cheap valve/energy conduit with integrated gate - or drop down always on solar panels for those outposts, however I'm not really a fan of any of those options.
 
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rymmie1981

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CovertJaguar told me that "if you don't have Buildcraft engines running constantly you're doing it wrong". So the design intent is to simply throw more power at it. That more or less puts the ridiculous amount of oil you get in the newer Buildcraft versions into perspective; it's there so you can simply keep your combustion engines running all the time.

Imagine for a moment a world without Redstone Energy Cells. Buildcraft power has always been likened to air pressure; in fact, it is even referenced internally as "PneumaticPowerNetwork". Now obviously it doesn't work that way - in the end, MJ is still transferred in discrete energy units like EU, and Thermal Expansion even made it storable like EU. Now CJ wants to move Buildcraft away from that idea again. If you just think of it as "keeping the pressure up in the pipes", you get a rough idea of what it's supposed to be like.

I still don't like this hybrid system. As it is, we have an energy network that still behaves like EU under the hood but makes the user jump through hoops to use it by pretending to be something else. If we actually had a pneumatic system, with a fully functioning pressure simulation, that would interest me greatly. You could build a great system in which specific machines not only had a certain "air consumption" (or whatever you want to call it), but would also require a certain minimum pressure to run at all. You could have machines with a high pressure requirement that actually consume very little, or machines with low requirements that nevertheless chew through a lot of "air" (Forestry centrifuge comes to mind). Conductive pipes would no longer have throughput limits, but rather pressure limits (and pipes could blow up by putting too much pressure into them). You'd need strong pipes for machines like the quarry, which would require enormous pressure to move its gigantic digging arm. Heck, you could even scale the pressure requirement by quarry size. Or a pump's requirements by the type of liquid and/or the elevation difference. So many options! It would completely change the way you play with Buildcraft, and it would be nothing like any other power system we have yet.

Heck, maybe I'll write this up in more detail and submit it as a proposal. It's probably never going to happen though, because it completely breaks compatibility with the existing system. And I bet someone else will come and complain that it uses 1% more CPU cycles for the physics simulation or something, and therefore is the devil itself and will make everything completely unplayable because of lag.

I don't know if you've checked out Rotarycraft, but it's power system is similar to that idea. I haven't tried it extensively, though. Of course, it uses kiloWatts and torque. The energy in a power line is measured in rad/s which is how quickly the shaft or flywheel spins. kiloWatts is how much energy required to do the work(just like real kW!!) and torque is how quickly the energy is drained(just like real life!!). While the terms are different, the concept is very close to a true pneumatic system like you describe. And that's probably because Reika is designing Rotarycraft to work like real energy which works almost exactly the same no matter what medium the energy uses to get from point A to point B.
 

Omicron

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I have tried Rotarycraft, yes. In fact, I tried it specifically for the power system. It's pretty fun, and very different, and routing power around by shafts and gears makes for a great engineering experience. Unfortunately the mod suffers from a severe lack of focus (on one hand developing a hardcore realistic power system, on the other hand including a whole bunch of arbitrary toys that have nothing to do with it and might as well be magic), a severe lack of balance (> 500% ore yield multiplier, ability to break and craft bedrock, nearly no vertical progression etc), and a very obvious alpha status. I really wish Rotarycraft all the best, but it needs a lot more polish and focus from where it is currently.

In the meantime, Buildcraft could potentially learn from the concepts Reika is pushing, and adopt a power system based on air pressure simulation, where power = force * velocity (a core rule of mechanics)... or rather, pressure * airflow. As I said, I'm going to write up that proposal, though I honestly don't expect overly much, because it really would be a very radical change that would shock a lot of people (and force them to use basic math, ermagerd!). ;)
 
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KirinDave

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CovertJaguar told me that "if you don't have Buildcraft engines running constantly you're doing it wrong". So the design intent is to simply throw more power at it. That more or less puts the ridiculous amount of oil you get in the newer Buildcraft versions into perspective; it's there so you can simply keep your combustion engines running all the time.

We get more oil? All I know of on this front is that there is a rare biome that can give you a lot of oil. I've never seen it naturally occur myself. On my current map generated with very recent Buildcraft, Railcraft and friends, I haven't seen a single oil spout. I was actually getting ready to ask if there was a bug or if the BC crew had offered up less oil. I've yet to see oil at all! Like, ANY!

And even if we ignore that fact (maybe I'm just unlucky!) then how are we supposed to go get the fuel? Teleport pipes are gone and the simple truth is that Railcraft networks or long pipe networks are totally infeasible in Minecraft. Mine carts have never been terribly useful, and for all Covert's work they remain a specialist tool or a mark of a vanity build. Similarly, long pipe networks are costly. And so we can say, "Ah well you will go to the trouble of laying a long rail line and paying for the costly anchor sentinels and laying useful track, but the oil dries up quickly and then what?" Moving chunkloaders like the Anchor Cart didn't work well for me when I tried i 1.4.7 (for RC or Steve's Carts, I'm like the only guy I know who had primary automining handled by Steve's Carts!) and didn't work basically at all when I tried early in the 1.5.* cycle. Maybe they're better now... it seems like moving chunkloaders are a constant problem.

So we can't move things via long distances automatically. So, I guess it is expected by Buildcraft that I spend time as a player going to fetch fuel?

I just look at the buildcraft+forestry+railcraft ecosystem, and I see lot stuff that's really interesting. But what I also see is a lot of stuff propped up by forestry's renewable power model.

Imagine for a moment a world without Redstone Energy Cells. Buildcraft power has always been likened to air pressure; in fact, it is even referenced internally as "PneumaticPowerNetwork". Now obviously it doesn't work that way - in the end, MJ is still transferred in discrete energy units like EU, and Thermal Expansion even made it storable like EU. Now CJ wants to move Buildcraft away from that idea again.

I know all this, and I remember the pre-TE world.

It just seems weird. The average base can have 20-30 machines easily. That means a constant draw of fuel into engines five or six engines just to deal with the idle draw, and more in some cases! And of course you'd better get good with pipe wire or you waste an epic sum of fuel actually running the remaning half-dozen engines that provide the work power. Hope Has Work? isn't buggy.

And I hope you turn chunkloaders off when you leave your base. Except that is sort of terrible for Forestry, so enjoy your impasse.

If you just think of it as "keeping the pressure up in the pipes", you get a rough idea of what it's supposed to be like.

If anything, buildcraft seems to be deviating from ideal. Get this, for a science project in high school I built a pneumatically actuated arm! I actually know a bit about how this metaphor is supposed to work, and let me tell you this idea of power constantly bleeding out is a weird one. Like evidently we can make watertight pipes but our energy pipes are constantly lossy? Or perhaps our machines have massive leaks we can never fix? The idle draw implies a leak in a pneumatic system.

Heck, maybe I'll write this up in more detail and submit it as a proposal. It's probably never going to happen though, because it completely breaks compatibility with the existing system. And I bet someone else will come and complain that it uses 1% more CPU cycles for the physics simulation or something, and therefore is the devil itself and will make everything completely unplayable because of lag.

Why not just build it yourself? But be cautioned, I think they called it Buildcraft for 1.4.7 when they built it and everyone rejoiced when KL introduced high-efficiency low-lag power conduit.

In any case, I feel like BC wants to increase time intensiveness to the point where I can't play minecraft for fun anymore. It's a delicate balance I grant, but... well let me show you. Go here. Select "Resonant Rise" from the dropdown. Find my name. You'll see in my youtube how far I've gotten in that time, it's not bad... and thats since launch of my modpack. Is modded minecraft supposed to be so hostile to casual gamers?
 

Omicron

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We get more oil?

Compared to 1.4.x, as far as I remember:
- Generation of oil lakes has been moved from "only vanilla deserts" to a list of biomes that biome mods can interact with, allowing the pools to spawn in desert-like biomes from EBXL and BoP
- Generation of oil lakes has been added to swamps (and thus swamp-like extra biomes)
- Biomes which spawn oil lakes have had their chance of oil spouts increased by 50%
- Oceans have had their chance for oil spouts doubled
- "Large" spouts (unsure of what is "large enough") have a 25% chance of the shaft going past the oil bubble down to bedrock, where an infinite oil spring block is situated that will generate a bucket every couple minutes
- Desert oilfield and ocean oilfield biomes were introduced

My 1.5.2 world had a large amount of oil, even though it was started under Buildcraft 3.5.3 which didn't have oilfield biomes. I have mapped out about 12 different spouts, only two of which I have managed to pump out so far (both small, and "pumped out" doesn't mean "actually consumed").

EDIT: just started a test world in Unleashed 1.1.2 and was able to see three oil spouts (two small, one medium) by just rotating in place on the spawnpoint, never touching WASD. Working fine as far as I'm concerned, maybe you DO have a bug? ;)

If anything, buildcraft seems to be deviating from ideal. Get this, for a science project in high school I built a pneumatically actuated arm! I actually know a bit about how this metaphor is supposed to work, and let me tell you this idea of power constantly bleeding out is a weird one.

That's because Buildcraft's power currently works nothing like a pneumatic system. In fact, it works 95% like Industrialcraft EU. It is pneumatic in flavor name only. Thus, if the intent is to differentiate, then weird systems like this one get invented.

Why not just build it yourself?

Because my coding abilities are fairly limited beyond simple scripting. I don't feel nearly qualified to touch anything remotely as complex as Minecraft's or Buildcraft's source code. That would be like letting an army of monkeys bang feces on the keyboard in hopes of reproducing Shakespeare's Works... :p
 
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