Forge and Nova

Apparently I own this thread now...Is NOVA a good thing?


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NJM1564

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Jul 29, 2019
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I really don't think doing a psychoanalysis of Lex is a discussion that needs to take place here or anywhere. Regardless of his actions show some respect for him.

We are not doing an analysis of him as a person. We are going an analysis of his actions. I respect him as fare as I can respect a person I have never met.
But there can be no respect to be had for his recent actions. And apparently much of his past actions ether.
And this NEEDS to be discussed.
Haven't you noticed that this isn't a new problem? It's bin known in certain circles that having him in charge of forge is a problem. Nothing happened because no one outside of those circles really knew about that problem and no one spoke about it publicly. And you can't fix a problem unless you identify it first.
Now it is widely known and spoken about. Now things can and are changing.
 
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Padfoote

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Dec 11, 2013
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We are not doing an analysis of him as a person. We are going an analysis of his actions. I respect him as fare as I can respect a person I have never met.
But there can be no respect to be had for his recent actions. And apparently much of his past actions ether.
And this NEEDS to be discussed.
Haven't you noticed that this isn't a new problem? It's bin known in certain circles that having him in charge of forge is a problem. Nothing happened because no one outside of those circles really knew about that problem and no one spoke about it publicly. And you can't fix a problem unless you identify it first.
Now it is widely known and spoken about. Now things can and are changing.

It does not matter what I think, have seen, or have known about this situation. What matters at this point is that the discussion is starting to take a turn in which we are insulting a person. I do not - and will not - have a discussion about what is occurring with Forge as the civil portion of that discussion has long since passed and has now evolved into breaking down Lex's personality. I don't care if I like a person or not, I will not partake in that kind of behavior.
 

FyberOptic

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Jul 29, 2019
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Well that was an unexpected turn, I admit.

But the fact of the matter is that while I'm glad Asie and Lex may have worked out their differences for the time being, that doesn't change anything else.

Luacs and his team are still stripped of their position. Dozens of other people have still been insulted or bullied, likely multiple times, with no apology or remorse, and will likely continue. The Forge chat room is still a constant source of bans against people he doesn't like, or for someone simply asking a question. The forums are similarly hostile, from what I understand. The Forge Github is still solely under his control, where good submissions are frequently ignored or closed, sometimes because he simply doesn't understand them. He still refuses to do anything that the community has asked to fix 1.8, and still doesn't even know what he's doing in that regard. And he may still lock down Forge itself to prevent coremod changes to it, which is unnecessary and unacceptable.

To be blunt, I'm not interested in his apologies. I'm interested in him fixing this mess. Actions speak louder than words.
 

asiekierka

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Dec 24, 2013
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Well that was an unexpected turn, I admit.

But the fact of the matter is that while I'm glad Asie and Lex may have worked out their differences for the time being, that doesn't change anything else.

Luacs and his team are still stripped of their position. Dozens of other people have still been insulted or bullied, likely multiple times, with no apology or remorse, and will likely continue. The Forge chat room is still a constant source of bans against people he doesn't like, or for someone simply asking a question. The forums are similarly hostile, from what I understand. The Forge Github is still solely under his control, where good submissions are frequently ignored or closed, sometimes because he simply doesn't understand them. He still refuses to do anything that the community has asked to fix 1.8, and still doesn't even know what he's doing in that regard. And he may still lock down Forge itself to prevent coremod changes to it, which is unnecessary and unacceptable.

To be blunt, I'm not interested in his apologies. I'm interested in him fixing this mess. Actions speak louder than words.

Thanks for having a healthy view of the situation. I guess I am an idiot.
 

Kamran Mackey

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Jul 29, 2019
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I'm still banned. But I don't care, I'm leaving. My reputation has been shattered in the eyes of many and quite frankly I'd love to move on and make my own projects.
Please don't leave. We need you in the community. You're the only person who actually works on BuildCraft for merging pull requests and adding new features to it, not to mention fixing bugs that pop up in BC. Please, don't leave the community and give the community at least one more chance.
 

NJM1564

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Jul 29, 2019
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This part bugs me.
http://pastebin.com/SjNjVe72
"<asie> Anyway... The coremod was supposed to stay private and the only reason it got linked to FML was calclavia's fatal mistake. We did not plan to release it without contacting you first."


Why was it a mistake? Was it a mistake because of the ensuing drama? Because you had no idea that would happen.

Was it because you didn't ask lex's permission?
You don't have to ask permission. Forge is open source.
That means no one owns it and no one has that kind of authority. And he is in violation of the very consent of open source to even suggest that you have to.
Because open source means "In production and development, open source as a development model promotes a universal access via a free license to a product's design or blueprint, and universal redistribution of that design or blueprint, including subsequent improvements to it by anyone."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
 

asiekierka

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Dec 24, 2013
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This part bugs me.
http://pastebin.com/SjNjVe72
"<asie> Anyway... The coremod was supposed to stay private and the only reason it got linked to FML was calclavia's fatal mistake. We did not plan to release it without contacting you first."


Why was it a mistake? Was it a mistake because of the ensuing drama? Because you had no idea that would happen.

Was it because you didn't ask lex's permission?
You don't have to ask permission. Forge is open source.
That means no one owns it and no one has that kind of authority. And he is in violation of the very consent of open source to even suggest that you have to.
Because open source means "In production and development, open source as a development model promotes a universal access via a free license to a product's design or blueprint, and universal redistribution of that design or blueprint, including subsequent improvements to it by anyone."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source

It was a mistake because calclavia did not know mentioning FML's issue on our tracker would cause our issue to pop up on the FML tracker.

We wanted to keep it all quiet and ask Lex later, mainly out of respect.

@Kamran - No. I gave this community enough chances. Even I have limited patience.
 

luacs1998

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Jul 29, 2019
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Well that was an unexpected turn, I admit.

But the fact of the matter is that while I'm glad Asie and Lex may have worked out their differences for the time being, that doesn't change anything else.

Luacs and his team are still stripped of their position. Dozens of other people have still been insulted or bullied, likely multiple times, with no apology or remorse, and will likely continue. The Forge chat room is still a constant source of bans against people he doesn't like, or for someone simply asking a question. The forums are similarly hostile, from what I understand. The Forge Github is still solely under his control, where good submissions are frequently ignored or closed, sometimes because he simply doesn't understand them. He still refuses to do anything that the community has asked to fix 1.8, and still doesn't even know what he's doing in that regard. And he may still lock down Forge itself to prevent coremod changes to it, which is unnecessary and unacceptable.

To be blunt, I'm not interested in his apologies. I'm interested in him fixing this mess. Actions speak louder than words.

That is still, unfortunately, the present and not the past. Even if Lex were to reinstate me, I'd resign immediately from his forums.

As I have stated repeatedly, he is an ass, but a capable ass. I might want to revise that statement to say that he's an arrogant shit as well. Apologizing to asie may only be lip service to show the community that he's still somewhat of a decent man. But will he follow up on his actions? I really doubt so.

Lex has a whole lot of bullshit to clean up before I'll even consider returning to my position. I do not want to work under someone like him. I have regrettably lost whatever trust I had in Lex after this episode.

As a note regarding the forums, @diesieben07 and I were the main ones in charge of banning people. I had half a mind to feed Lex his own medicine and give him a posting ban from the support forums, seeing as he himself claims "I am not good with people", but decided against it.

And regarding PRs, I remember a day where I had to spend 3-4 hours spamming a lot of people's github news feeds and emails to bump old Forge PR threads, asking if they were still relevant. Only then did Lex actually take action, claiming that he supported my actions because "there were no one asking the questions I didn't want to ask".

@cpw, I address this next bit to you. You once likened Lex to Linus Torvalds, but I think that comparison is invalid. Linus has the right to act like a douchebag because he commands the respect of the Linux community. Unlike Forge, the Linux community is very open. Forks everywhere. Anyone can contribute even if Linus thinks they're scum on earth. All Linus can do is to scream and yell and curse the poor fellow's entire extended family to oblivion. This is not happening in MinecraftForge. And what Lex is doing is further damaging his standing in the community. Soon, he will be in the position of a despotic dictator, and we all know what History has done to despotic dictators.

In closing, while I, like asie respect Lex for the amount of technical and Minecraft code-related knowledge he has, I think is is grossly unfit to run Forge ALONE. Many people have repeatedly volunteered their help with maintaining Forge, but he refuses to accept other contributors on the basis that they're not "capable" enough. What is this "capable" you speak of and how can we bring ourselves worthy of being a contributor to MinecraftForge?

Clean up your house, Lex. Or everyone will leave your house and Forge will die. I don't want that to happen, so if you want Forge (and your ricebowl) to continue to prosper, you need to do something.
 
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bochen415

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Jul 29, 2019
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Us45jMq.jpg
 

luacs1998

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Jul 29, 2019
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He used to be a global moderator. Navigate off there, go to another board.

Or you might have missed
The expulsion of me and my team was a dickheaded move, but it seems only the ranks were removed. LM is incompetent enough on the forums to not know how to remove board moderators. (if he does, good for him, but do you really want to burn your bridges, Mr. Manos?) So it means minecraftforge.net will remain idiot-free for a certain period of time.
 

asiekierka

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Dec 24, 2013
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In closing, while I, like asie respect Lex for the amount of technical and Minecraft code-related knowledge he has, I think is is grossly unfit to run Forge ALONE. Many people have repeatedly volunteered their help with maintaining Forge, but he refuses to accept other contributors on the basis that they're not "capable" enough. What is this "capable" you speak of and how can we bring ourselves worthy of being a contributor to MinecraftForge?

It's not about "capable". Lex has talked to me once (a few months ago), and he mentioned that while "capable" is one thing, that would include people like me; however, he also wants that person to be able to work with him without major conflicts - one of the few people fitting the bill were Rainwarrior and AbrarSyed.
 
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stardustrider

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Jul 29, 2019
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As I have stated repeatedly, he is an ass, but a capable ass. I might want to revise that statement to say that he's an arrogant shit as well. Apologizing to asie may only be lip service to show the community that he's still somewhat of a decent man. But will he follow up on his actions? I really doubt so.

Capability and talent is only half of one whole. Being able to work with others and within a team harmoniously makes up the other half. Anywhere in the Industry you can be as spectacular as humanly possibly, but if you're a splendiferous dick, you'll be shown the door pretty damn quickly.
 

Jadedcat

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Jul 29, 2019
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All discussion about the Forge vs Nova drama has been moved here.

Also as a reminder, name-calling is not allowed for any reason. I don't care to delete the posts since they are a valid discussion. However if the name-calling continues I will delete all of them. Be polite.
 

Golrith

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From the totally other direction, what is/was Nova? Sounds intriguing.
 

RavynousHunter

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Jul 29, 2019
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NOVA seems to be a way to help make mods more version-independent with respect to vanilla updates. All in all, it seems to be a good step in the right direction, since it'll give modders less backend stuff they need to worry about, thus allowing them to focus more on content, bugfixes, and the like for their own content. Forge is still quite beholden to Minecraft's update schedule and the ways in which it can, and at times will, break things rather badly. I applaud it.

To put it into real-world terms, think of it like this:

As it is now, when Reika goes to update RotaryCraft for a new vanilla version, he has to take into account not only the various changes that inevitably pop up with Forge, but also the massive changes under the hood in vanilla code, like the massive changes to rendering in 1.8. Accounting for these changes takes away time from Reika's schedule that could otherwise be spent on adding content to RotaryCraft, improving its functionality, and generally making it a better mod than it already is.

With the abstraction layer provided by NOVA, and operating under my understanding of what that means, Reika would now have fewer "behind the scenes" changes to worry about since NOVA would take care of that internally. NOVA's wrapper classes and methods encapsulate Forge's (and perhaps vanilla's, to an extent) code, and delegates between them and RotaryCraft; it speaks the ever-evolving language of Forge to Forge, but when speaking to RotaryCraft, it will be using the same words and syntax every time, making it easier for RotaryCraft to understand. This frees up time Reika would otherwise be spending on accounting for Forge's various changes, allowing him to get more done with respect to his mod's actual content.

Again, this is all working off my own, personal understanding of how NOVA works, so take it with a grain of salt. I, like anyone, am totally capable of being utterly, completely wrong.
 

asiekierka

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NOVA blah blah blah explanation

Completely correct. Also, the old wrappers keep working - so while Forge stabilizes for 1.8, bleeding-edge people can use NOVA mods with 1.8 to test, while people who like stability can use 1.7.10 - easing the "mod movement period" a lot and making the vanilla Minecraft version simply another number to worry about, just like mod versions.
 

pc_assassin

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Jul 29, 2019
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Hmm since that is correct could we see backwards compatibility? Oh how I would love Extra Utils bedrockium drums in my unleashed world
 
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