Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
FTB Mod Dev
Sep 3, 2013
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Toronto, Canada
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Yes: its your preference, and you lack interest in recognizing or accomodating other preferences. (That's your prerogative without question, but others are ethically entitled to indulge their own preferences you'll agree)
It sounds like you are saying that a mod designed to do nothing but break the RC progression - if that is what CBG has in mind - should not only be permitted but encouraged.

Now, if he wants to use it for personal use, go ahead. But as soon as it goes public it becomes like any other mod and direct, destructive interactions are neither ethical nor tolerated.
 

CarbonBasedGhost

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Jul 29, 2019
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It sounds like you are saying that a mod designed to do nothing but break the RC progression - if that is what CBG has in mind - should not only be permitted but encouraged.

Now, if he wants to use it for personal use, go ahead. But as soon as it goes public it becomes like any other mod and direct, destructive interactions are neither ethical nor tolerated.
I think we have a misunderstanding. There is a machine in GT which can assemble things with 2 input slots. The items do not have to be used up in the crafting. So I can balance in a method of assembling your parts that fit into progression (with an assembly chip).

ethical - of or relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these. - yes it would be unethical
tolerated - allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference. - it will most certainly be tolerated

Also I am entitled to my code and no matter how game-breaking it is for your mod I am still allowed to distribute it. I am certainly not going to do that because I am not that type of person. On top of all of that please don't jump straight to conclusions without giving me a chance to explain.

If you would like to have a civil conversation please PM me.
 

Pyrolusite

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Jul 29, 2019
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Guys, seriously. You don't need to be that harsh because someone is not playing the same way we are.

You could've asked politely if Reika wouldn't mind if someone was willing to make a "bridge mod" between GT and RotaryCraft, instead of going full frontal like this.

Also, please, play the mod before mindlessly putting tool requirements, plates, bolts and circuits in every recipe you come across.
RotaryCraft is not your average tech mod, understand how it works and how it's balanced before trying to "Greggify" it.
Imho, just enforcing GT blast furnace usage to create HSLA Steel should be more than enough.
 
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CarbonBasedGhost

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Guys, seriously. You don't need to be that harsh because someone is not playing the same way we are.

You could've asked politely if Reika wouldn't mind if someone was willing to make a "bridge mod" between GT and RotaryCraft, instead of going full frontal like this.

Also, please, play the mod before mindlessly putting tool requirements, plates, bolts and circuits in every recipe you come across.
RotaryCraft is not your average tech mod, understand how it works and how it's balanced before trying to "Greggify" it.
Imho, just enforcing GT blast furnace usage to create HSLA Steel should be more than enough.
I could of asked politely (??????). I feel I am being more civil than reika.

I have played RoC on many worlds before and fully understand how it works.
 

Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
FTB Mod Dev
Sep 3, 2013
5,079
5,331
550
Toronto, Canada
sites.google.com
I could of asked politely (??????). I feel I am being more civil than reika.

I have played RoC on many worlds before and fully understand how it works.
I have not accused you of anything, merely stating that if it was damaging, this addon would be something I would not allow, and then responding to Pyure's comment about how I essentially have no right to tell people not to break RC.

As it stands, what you have described (making RC machines in a "fabricator" table rather than the crafting table, but otherwise leaving recipes unchanged) sounds perfectly fine.
 

Pyure

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Aug 14, 2013
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It sounds like you are saying that a mod designed to do nothing but break the RC progression - if that is what CBG has in mind - should not only be permitted but encouraged.

Now, if he wants to use it for personal use, go ahead. But as soon as it goes public it becomes like any other mod and direct, destructive interactions are neither ethical nor tolerated.
Backwards and hypocritical, and unusually poorly thought out for you.

You're in a modding world now. If you don't like how other people mod, deal with it. They don't need your permission to be creative. Their idea of balance doesn't need to coincide with yours. And so long as they aren't breaking any laws with their content, you can mind your own business.

I don't create mods -- I don't have the time for it -- but this sort of attitude is so hostile its downright tempting for me to create an Open RotaryCraft.
 

trajing

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Jul 29, 2019
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Woo hostilities.
I have no clue who to support, as I have an immense amount of respect for both sides.
 

Scottly318

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Jul 29, 2019
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Reika has every right to control his mod as he sees fit. It's not "backwards and hypocritical" as you see. Technically it's his intellectual property to do with as he sees fit. And if that includes not allowing the progression of his mod to be disrupted by another that is his right to do so. Even in the modding world there is a standard that has to be followed. And the creator of the mod has plenty of ability to keep his mod as he or she sees fit
 

Celestialphoenix

Too Much Free Time
Nov 9, 2012
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Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
Even in the modding world there is a standard that has to be followed.

Yes.
This is why we have this thing about asking permission before we do stuff; its somewhat more than just being polite- and if people are just going to ignore an unfavourable response to get what they want then theres no point in asking. No means no guys.
 
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CarbonBasedGhost

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Reika has every right to control his mod as he sees fit. It's not "backwards and hypocritical" as you see. Technically it's his intellectual property to do with as he sees fit. And if that includes not allowing the progression of his mod to be disrupted by another that is his right to do so. Even in the modding world there is a standard that has to be followed. And the creator of the mod has plenty of ability to keep his mod as he or she sees fit
Well actually no, he does have every right to control his mod and to do with as he sees fit. But in no shape or form is he allowed to interfere with my code which breaks his mod. Why? Because it is my code and I get to do whatever I want with it as I see fit. But it would be a problem if I was using his code to do so.

Me and Reika have reached a kinda-agreement on what I am doing so please stop making posts about our legal right or what is ethical. Especially if you do not know how the legal side of things work. [DOUBLEPOST=1415014100][/DOUBLEPOST]
Yes.
This is why we have this thing about asking permission before we do stuff; its somewhat more than just being polite- and if people are just going to ignore an unfavourable response to get what they want then theres no point in asking. No means no guys.
No means no, but in this case it does not legally stop me from doing so. If I were to ask for permission to include a mod in a modpack a no has legal meaning. In this case a no expresses opinion but does not wit hold me from doing anything.
 

Omega Haxors

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Can you guys seriously go 2 pages without starting an argument? I'm getting sick of making suggestions to get it back on track.

Well this is my last one. Excuse me if the quality is low, I've been scraping the bottom of the barrel on these last few.

Player Detector: Allow it to transfer redstone upwards. All I want to do is make a simple automatic door opener but I have to screw around with the slab bug just to get it to the door without taking up too much space. It would also be nice if you could offset the detection radius to be one or two blocks from the machine by pointing the antenna with your screwdriver.

Scaleable chest: The GUI on it is a nightmare. It's by no means broken but nobody wants to click on pages upon pages of items just to find what they want. You also cannot shift click items into other pages meaning you have to waste time and power to move over to the right page to make your transaction. For a chest that's so high tier you would expect it to be a lot better as a storage solution. All that really needs to be done to make it worth using is ditch the page system and make it a single inventory with a slider.

Gearboxes: Please give a little leeway when running unlubricated gearboxes. They break almost the instant they are placed making them near impossible to place in an active mechanism without having to repair them. They also seem to blow up if you put them in torque and give you almost no resources back, which again, would not be a problem if they didn't default on torque mode. The guidebook also implies that gearboxes will break based on how much power is put through, not on how much torque.

Flywheels: There is no high-tier flywheel for endgame power storage, short of the turbine flywheel. Before when flywheels were so broken that just using them was a risk in itself, this wouldn't even be considered. Now that flywheels operate almost perfectly (unless you hook them up into themselves) it feels missing to not have higher tier flywheels.

Electricraft: You can use electricraft to skip tiers early on as long as you have enough diamonds, redstone, glowstone, lapis, and ender eyes. The only dependence on RoC in eletricraft is that you need liquid nitrogen and a filling unit to make superconducting wires, but even that can be supplemented by TE's Gelid Cryotheum.

High Ratio Gear: Who uses this? It's just a 32x gearbox that requires a crap tonne of lubricant, bedrock ingot, and maintenance. The CVT and bedrock gearboxes are much more flexible and cheaper to make and don't even require any thought after you place them down. It seems really odd to have a space saving solution take more space than the alternative since lubricant will need to be piped in.

Heater: On subject of devices that completely fail their intended purpose, what about the heater? 9 out of 10 times I use it because I need a precise heat input. The heater seems to LOVE to spike 100 degrees over what I set and it ends up destroying a lot of my machines. Furthermore the device is intended to be used on steam engines and compactors; devices that can very easily and safely operate at consistent temperatures with fire/lava underneath. Also, why does it need both shaft power and fuel? Couldn't it just provide power from friction or just fuel?

Liquid Distillery: OPAF. 6 buckets of lubricant for 1 oil? Count me in. As an added bonus you only need 1 DC engine and a few gearboxes and you're golden.

Operation speed: On some devices, mainly the spawner controller, speed rates are completely broken. 0.05 seconds per operation is something that should be hard to obtain yet it seems a lot of devices can get up to there easily. Other devices on the other hand will only go up a measly second per operation when you double the power output.

Dew Point Aggregator: What's the point in having this? You can easily enough get water from a 4 wide pool and DC engine. I suppose it would be useful on a finite water server, but that's about it. I tired putting a water block over top of it to generate water faster but it just blocked the device instead.

Light Bridge: Admit it, it's for showing off. The high power requirement on top of the direct sunlight requirement make for a very inconsistent and expensive bridge that can easily be made with a block ram. I also didn't realize that sci-fi counts as realism even though I would love to see more of these kind of things.

Reservoirs: I would love it if you could stack these vertically to make deep pools. It's also disappointing how the hitbox of reservoirs only goes away if it's fully surrounded. Considering the bug's been in the game for so long I can only assume it's an engine issue.

Smoke Detector: This thing isn't saving anybodies life. It's so quiet! I would expect a blaring siren, not a cute little whee whee whee. I've had my cooking complimented by a smoke detector before and I can say it's certainly a sound you don't want to keep going for more than three seconds. It's also got a wonky hitbox.

Defoliation Machine: You're better off using the firestarter. This thing is way too slow, even at higher energy inputs. It also produces a lot of lag. I also cannot seem to figure out how to get poison. I assume it's being taken out of the game considering the creative mode texture looks like placeholder bedrock.

Railcraft Hidden Block: I know it's a terrible way to code in something on their part, but it's silly that so many parts of the mod are broken by this. It's a simple change; if block.IsAir() rather than if block.id = 0. Considering railcraft's hidden block is enabled by default and disabling it requires google since they stupidity change the block name to heat.residual (why!?) rather than the existing block.hidden which the first thing I searched in the config.

Solar Tower: One word. Laaaaag. For a multiblock it sure is poorly optimized. Don't even think of making a big one because your PC will die of cancer half way through construction.
 
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Pyure

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Reika has every right to control his mod as he sees fit. It's not "backwards and hypocritical" as you see. Technically it's his intellectual property to do with as he sees fit. And if that includes not allowing the progression of his mod to be disrupted by another that is his right to do so. Even in the modding world there is a standard that has to be followed. And the creator of the mod has plenty of ability to keep his mod as he or she sees fit
I like how you worded this Scottly318. Its well said. But the arguments aren't entirely valid.

I specifically covered any legal issues. Nobody should intrude on his intellectual property. But that doesn't prevent someone from cloning the operations of his mod (without touching his assets or code)

Game "ideas" can be and are cloned every day. You can ethically and legally do this as much as you like. You cannot protect a game design idea, nor should you: nearly every game we have today is spawned from someone "borrowing" an idea and expanding on it.

Evolution is a neat thing and watching it in action in game development is fun :)

Sorry @Omega Haxors.

Edit: Omega, you made a lot of really good points, sufficiently that now I actually have to go through that and get back on topic :\
 

Pyure

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Player Detector, Scaleable chest, Flywheels: agreed

Reservoirs: Agreed but I respect that the code required may not outweigh the benefit.

Gearboxes:
strongly agreed

Electricraft: I gather this is just an FYI?

High Ratio Gear: Agreed. Someone requested the HRG but it fails cost/benefit analysis when all is said and done.

Heater: I've had decent experience with the heater. Maybe I used a friendlier fuel source.

Liquid Distillery: I didn't even know this existed. But if you can create 1 oil from 6 lubricant without any "real" power (DC engines use magic power) then, yeah, that's an issue.

Light Bridge: This one's weird. Reika rules out things due to realism all the time, but I agree I wish we had more stuff like this.

Solar Tower: I haven't had issues with lag here, but I understand others have (my experience dates back to Horizons version of Solar Tower)
 

ljfa

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Jul 29, 2019
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Defoliation Machine: You're better off using the firestarter. This thing is way too slow, even at higher energy inputs. It also produces a lot of lag. I also cannot seem to figure out how to get poison. I assume it's being taken out of the game considering the creative mode texture looks like placeholder bedrock.
I think the poison comes from vanilla poison potions
 

Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
FTB Mod Dev
Sep 3, 2013
5,079
5,331
550
Toronto, Canada
sites.google.com
Before I respond to the suggestions, I want to say:
Saying that people have the legal right to make whatever kind of addon they want is missing the point. You can certainly make it and I can do nothing to stop you.
However, I can very easily completely break it, or make RC disable itself (like it does if you try restricting things to donators), something also within my power.
And again, @CarbonBasedGhost, this is not an accusation against you. Your idea sounds fine and I have no plans to act against it.

Player Detector: Allow it to transfer redstone upwards. All I want to do is make a simple automatic door opener but I have to screw around with the slab bug just to get it to the door without taking up too much space. It would also be nice if you could offset the detection radius to be one or two blocks from the machine by pointing the antenna with your screwdriver.
It technically can output redstone upwards, but wire cannot be placed directly on top of it. It is impossible to make it conduct "strongly" like a torch does.

Scaleable chest: The GUI on it is a nightmare. It's by no means broken but nobody wants to click on pages upon pages of items just to find what they want. You also cannot shift click items into other pages meaning you have to waste time and power to move over to the right page to make your transaction. For a chest that's so high tier you would expect it to be a lot better as a storage solution. All that really needs to be done to make it worth using is ditch the page system and make it a single inventory with a slider.
Sliders are horrible to code and their GUIs are often unusable. Look at the Filing cabinet.

Gearboxes: Please give a little leeway when running unlubricated gearboxes. They break almost the instant they are placed making them near impossible to place in an active mechanism without having to repair them.
If you have an active lubricant supply, it will be added before the gearbox is damaged. On top of that, you can easily fill them elsewhere and then place them in place.

They also seem to blow up if you put them in torque and give you almost no resources back, which again, would not be a problem if they didn't default on torque mode.
They have to default to something, and the speed mode will break more often on first place.

The guidebook also implies that gearboxes will break based on how much power is put through, not on how much torque.
"Like shafts, gearboxes are subject to material failure under excessive loads."
This is the most direct and accurate way to say this. I use load in the engineering sense. On top of that, I refer to shafts, whose limits are explicitly detailed.

Flywheels: There is no high-tier flywheel for endgame power storage, short of the turbine flywheel. Before when flywheels were so broken that just using them was a risk in itself, this wouldn't even be considered. Now that flywheels operate almost perfectly (unless you hook them up into themselves) it feels missing to not have higher tier flywheels.
Flywheels are not designed or intended for power storage, and there is little need for one late-game.

Electricraft: You can use electricraft to skip tiers early on as long as you have enough diamonds, redstone, glowstone, lapis, and ender eyes. The only dependence on RoC in eletricraft is that you need liquid nitrogen and a filling unit to make superconducting wires, but even that can be supplemented by TE's Gelid Cryotheum.
Not anymore. Wires and batteries require higher-tier materials, especially the superconductor, which requires tungsten. I am not sure if this is a v3 change.

High Ratio Gear: Who uses this? It's just a 32x gearbox that requires a crap tonne of lubricant, bedrock ingot, and maintenance. The CVT and bedrock gearboxes are much more flexible and cheaper to make and don't even require any thought after you place them down. It seems really odd to have a space saving solution take more space than the alternative since lubricant will need to be piped in.
256x.

Heater: On subject of devices that completely fail their intended purpose, what about the heater? 9 out of 10 times I use it because I need a precise heat input. The heater seems to LOVE to spike 100 degrees over what I set and it ends up destroying a lot of my machines.
That is how the heater works. It consumes fuel to heat up, and then cools until it is cold enough to consume fuel again. It is not intended for precise control.

Furthermore the device is intended to be used on steam engines
No.

and compactors, devices that can very easily and safely operate at consistent temperatures with fire/lava underneath.
No, the compactor needs 800C to make diamonds, its main purpose.

Also, why does it need both shaft power and fuel? Couldn't it just provide power from friction or just fuel?
That is the friction heater.

Liquid Distillery: OPAF. 6 buckets of lubricant for 1 oil? Count me in. As an added bonus you only need 1 DC engine and a few gearboxes and you're golden.
Operation speed: On some devices, mainly the spawner controller, speed rates are completely broken. 0.05 seconds per operation is something that should be hard to obtain yet it seems a lot of devices can get up to there easily. Other devices on the other hand will only go up a measly second per operation when you double the power output.
You are in the huge minority on both of these. I get incessant complaints of exact the opposite.

Dew Point Aggregator: What's the point in having this? You can easily enough get water from a 4 wide pool and DC engine.
Not even close.

I suppose it would be useful on a finite water server, but that's about it. I tired putting a water block over top of it to generate water faster but it just blocked the device instead.
Give it more power and it will generate huge amounts of liquid, up to 64000 mB/t.


Light Bridge: Admit it, it's for showing off. The high power requirement on top of the direct sunlight requirement make for a very inconsistent and expensive bridge that can easily be made with a block ram. I also didn't realize that sci-fi counts as realism even though I would love to see more of these kind of things.
The realism concerns have seen it ready to be modified, but nothing has been sufficient to replace it.

Reservoirs: I would love it if you could stack these vertically to make deep pools. It's also disappointing how the hitbox of reservoirs only goes away if it's fully surrounded. Considering the bug's been in the game for so long I can only assume it's an engine issue.
Multiple hitboxes per block, while possible, are difficult and glitchy. As for multilevel reservoirs, that would require a total rewrite to the renderer and distribution logic, which would not only be a huge amount of work but also perform far worse.

Smoke Detector: This thing isn't saving anybodies life. It's so quiet! I would expect a blaring siren, not a cute little whee whee whee. I've had my cooking complimented by a smoke detector before and I can say it's certainly a sound you don't want to keep going for more than three seconds. It's also got a wonky hitbox.
The hitbox is fixed in v3, and the noise is as loud as you make it. Do not set machine volume to 20% and then complain about it being quiet. Also, the sound is of my smoke detector going off.

Defoliation Machine: You're better off using the firestarter. This thing is way too slow, even at higher energy inputs. It also produces a lot of lag. I also cannot seem to figure out how to get poison. I assume it's being taken out of the game considering the creative mode texture looks like placeholder bedrock.
Liquid poison is usable in the machine, but it is only added by other mods. Use potions for "vanilla RC". Also, give it more speed, not more power. Torque increases range, which lowers apparent speed (actions per area per time).

Railcraft Hidden Block: I know it's a terrible way to code in something on their part, but it's silly that so many parts of the mod are broken by this. It's a simple change; if block.IsAir() rather than if block.id = 0. Considering railcraft's hidden block is enabled by default and disabling it requires google since they stupidity change the block name to heat.residual (why!?) rather than the existing block.hidden which the first thing I searched in the config.
I do check isAir(). It fixes nothing.

Solar Tower: One word. Laaaaag. For a multiblock it sure is poorly optimized. Don't even think of making a big one because your PC will die of cancer half way through construction.
Two words: Prove it.
Unless you go insane and make something 50x50, I see no performance problems, and even then, only the renderer lags out, something which is unavoidable and frankly obvious.
 
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Pyure

Not Totally Useless
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@Reika
Good responses on Omega's stuff. I might inject that the Flywheel is arguably an interesting and potentially useful toy at all stages of the game. And also that lubricant-to-oil is vastly OP (if, and only if, it can be done purely with dc or steam engines. I do not have this information.)

For your addon-prevention comment, yes you could break people's games to prevent such, but that would only apply to addons, not a clone of the mod itself (for what its worth and in the interest of civil discussion, I know of nobody pursuing such a clone)
 

JOBGG

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I have to weigh in on lubricant to oil though, on our server where we limit growth rate of plants it's incredibly hard to get enough lube for turbines, and my lubricant farm causes immense amounts of lag, which is why i'll most likely replace it with a MFR oil fabricator + Liquid Distillery combo which is more compact but guzzles RF like crazy 10k RF/Oil Fabricator, and i'll need 5 / High Pressure Turbine. So that power simply goes in at a different point, unless you pump worldgen oil, but then it's a power dense liquid which means you're still paying a roughly equal opportunity cost. That said, I'd love for a high tech fully rotarycraft lube production system, like a pile driver, a pump and fluid pipe covered in tungsten that does deep earth fracking.
 

Bigpak

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Jul 29, 2019
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Have you changed where the changelogs are? I haven't seen any updates to the changelogs and I think there have been updates to the mod that are not on the changelog? I am not 100% sure.
 

keybounce

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Real human output is about 600W at most.

So lets expand on the ideas of potion-powered-people performing peakidly.

Speed: Speed increases walking speed by 20% per level. If it increases your performance by 150w per level, then you can go up to 750, 900, etc, from some magically produced sugar water ("soda pop")

Strength: Gives you more muscle power in your arms/upper body. So a machine based around resistive pushing, for example, would give higher output. At 130% per level, (wow!), that's about 900W per level of potion. Suddenly we're talking serious power.

Jump boost/leaping: Improves your leg strength, enough to raise a 100 kg object another 1/2 meter per level. That sounds like a lot of increased energy.

Yea, while a person-powered engine isn't going to be much at the start, it will be once you have potion effects, or a beacon, etc.