Mod Feedback [By Request] RotaryCraft Suggestions

Demosthenex

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Jul 29, 2019
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Another item came up on IRC regarding whether the bedrock sword's armor breaking ability worked on other players wearing bedrock armor.

It sounds like the bedrock sword does break bedrock armor, which I would argue should be the only kind immune to the ability due to matching materials.

Also could I ask that you disable the armor breaking on other players if PvP is disabled? In a close fight against mobs you could take out your friend's armor.
 

Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
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Another item came up on IRC regarding whether the bedrock sword's armor breaking ability worked on other players wearing bedrock armor.

It sounds like the bedrock sword does break bedrock armor, which I would argue should be the only kind immune to the ability due to matching materials.

Also could I ask that you disable the armor breaking on other players if PvP is disabled? In a close fight against mobs you could take out your friend's armor.
I believe both of these are included in v25.
EDIT: They are.
 

R4FKEN

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Jul 29, 2019
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Hi Reika,

I don't know where to put this, but I got following message. I can provide the full log if needed.

QUOTE
2014-07-16 04:53:39 [INFO] [STDOUT] ROTARYCRAFT: Chunk at -70, 403 failed to allow population due to a ConcurrentModificationException! Contact Reika with information on any mods that might be multithreading worldgen!
UNQUOTE

Greetings,
R4FKEN
 

Veggetossj

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Jul 29, 2019
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Another item came up on IRC regarding whether the bedrock sword's armor breaking ability worked on other players wearing bedrock armor.

It sounds like the bedrock sword does break bedrock armor, which I would argue should be the only kind immune to the ability due to matching materials.

Also could I ask that you disable the armor breaking on other players if PvP is disabled? In a close fight against mobs you could take out your friend's armor.

Bedrock sword also seems to break MPS armour, while it normally shouldnt have a durability value.
 

Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
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Bedrock sword also seems to break MPS armour, while it normally shouldnt have a durability value.
Fixed long ago, unless MPS is really broken.

Hi Reika,

I don't know where to put this, but I got following message. I can provide the full log if needed.

QUOTE
2014-07-16 04:53:39 [INFO] [STDOUT] ROTARYCRAFT: Chunk at -70, 403 failed to allow population due to a ConcurrentModificationException! Contact Reika with information on any mods that might be multithreading worldgen!
UNQUOTE

Greetings,
R4FKEN
Some chunk did not populate correctly.
 

R4FKEN

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
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Fixed long ago, unless MPS is really broken.


Some chunk did not populate correctly.
Thanks, but I realized that.
It sounded to me that you wanted to be notified if that message appeared. But OK, no prob!
 

Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
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Sep 3, 2013
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Thanks, but I realized that.
It sounded to me that you wanted to be notified if that message appeared. But OK, no prob!
It also tells you to include any info on mods that may be multithreading worldgen (which is what would cause this issue), but without that information, I cannot tell you anything more than your borer pulled up nothing but stone for a chunk.
 

Saereth

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Jul 29, 2019
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I understand this may be purely personal preference but after running Roc/RC/EC for sometime in our server we're coming across a consistent comments that I would like to pass along. You are of course completely within your rights to entirely disregard said comments :p

1. Lubrication seems counter intuitive to the system. The realism element not withstanding most of our playerbase has commented that it feels like a grind mechanic that offers little in the way of engagement or teaching, to the end that most rush towards gearbox and systems that require little or no lube such as the bedrock gears, cvts etc. continually supplying and producing lubrication, especially early in rotarycraft where it is actually needed the most becomes a frustration that detracts from the learning and enjoy ability of the mod at entry level. What you do with the feedback is ultimately yours to decide but in this scenario I would probably suggest allowing for recycling of lubrication to lessen the burden, or removing the continuous lubrication requirement from some devices, or requiring lubrication for bedrock devices. The consistency is key here so it doesn't feel like a race to get out of the wood/stone/steel age just to avoid lubricant as much as possible. We have guys who's sole focus becomes rushing a bedrock breaker for that very purpose, and doing it within a day of a new world. If the ultimate goal here is to simply skip all the other models and gear boxes then it's working.

2. Multiple gear boxes to achieve ratios get in the way of aesthetic builds. Simply put if we need 3-4 gear boxes to get the gearing right on a device while some only need 1 its suddenly changes the way we are forced to layout our base and the amount of space we must dedicate to RC machines by a great deal. It severely limits compact builds. The CVT is nice once you reach that stage (which again many of our players race to within the first couple days) but some machines require even more than 32:1. I guess here a modular gear box, perhaps a step between a CVT that would allow for more varied ratios and greater ratios would be ideal. Even if it required the same or more resources but able to reduce that gearing change into a single block instead of 5-6 would help remove the space limitations. Also on the topic of CVTs, being able to bucket in lubricant to the cvt has been highly requested, not sure if its a bug or not that you can't, but it seems to be an intended design?

3. on the topic of space saving, I love what you've done with current in Electricraft but along the same lines converting to current and suffering the loss from it yields little benefit, especially in the early game. It requires the creation of a completely new machine per device to receive power as well as the machine to convert to current. We need gear boxes to get the current right overall and then several gear boxes to get it to what we want at the receiving end. Couple that with the fact that many machines put out exactly enough power to run other machines and ANY loss means you literally can no longer use that machine for power. Again we get into a situation where EC is just avoided until end game when the loss less cabling can be used, and even then as a method to circumvent the lubrication requirements of a shaft power bus and/or for aesthetic reasons. I'm not sure there is a simple solution here that would satisfy your vision of RC, but it is a common complaint nonetheless.

4. We experience a disappearing texture issue. Fans, grinders, magnetizers, toroid magnets etc do not render when viewed from certain directions. We have taken many steps to try and solve this (Minecraft 1.6.4, with optifine, without optifine, with custom texture packs, without custom texture pack), latest version of RC/Roc/EC/DragonAPI, all variations we have tried result in the same issue. Some of these machines looks really nice and having them consistently seen would definitely add to the polish of the mod.

5. Decreased obscurity of consumption would be greatly appreciated. If the angular transducer or another device could estimate your amount of fuel/water/lubrication consumption it would definitely help the learning curve, and also go towards helping individuals feel they have mastered the machines. One instance of this was one of our players trying to get water to a solar tower, he had no idea how much it required. An accumulator wasn't enough, 4 accumulators weren't enough... he started adding in a couple pumps and finally got it right but all along he had no way of knowing his requirements to prepare for and build the infrastructure. I really like the fact that you're bringing some actual physics into play here and on that line of thinking systems design generally includes approximation of consumption of these types of things.

6. Lastly there is the issue of automation for some machines. A mode select for the way a machine is filled would be very useful. Take for instance a blast furnace. We can prefill it with gunpwder, coal and sand and keep those filled with pipes or ME export buses. If you try to dump in 9 iron to turn into steel after that, the expected behavior would be to fill the available slots first to begin processing all 9 at once. Instead it puts all 9 ingots into a stack in the first slot. Again this was probably a design decision on your part but a way to configure this would be very appreciated. Same is true for the compactor and most likely a couple other machines (fractionation machine I just fill the last couple spots with cobble to effectively block them up).

You've done amazing work on this mod, and if I sound critical it is merely because this is the short list of things we had issue with apart from all the good. I assure you the list of things we DO like would be vastly longer than this and on behalf of our players thank you for all your effort on all of your mods, keep up the great work!
 
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Pyure

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Hi Saereth; my $0.02 on your comments:
1. Agreed, from a gameflow perspective. However the focus on better gearboxes is part of the tiering design.
2. I think this is also intentional. Gears and shafts take up more space than electronics, and you need to design you base around that
3.
Very much agree. For purely game-experience reasons, I'd love to see materials handled differently for wiring in EC, but I'd gamble my dog against it happening. Sadly, it means that on my first day of EC I'll always, always, create a few hundred lossless wires...who wouldnt?.

Ideally we'd have just one wire type (lossless or lossy, whichever), and the different materials would create those wires at different degrees of efficiency. For the sake of realism, I'd say that those different materials are used as insulation or grounding or cutting or something. As a (non-EC) example: 1tin+1diamond=1wire. 1gold+1diamond=3wires. 1platinum+1diamond=8wires. So forth. Toss the useless wires that nobody uses.​
4. If you're seeing what I think you're seeing, this is a deliberate performance improvement measure
5. Agreed. More feedback is always preferable
6. I get the impression that trying to improve this was just more trouble than it was worth. But I'd love to see it done regardless.
 

Ieldra

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Apr 25, 2014
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@Saereth:
I love it how you wanted to say "aesthetic builds" and what you actually wrote was "atheistic builds". One does wonder what that is :D Meanwhile, I do agree very much with that point.
 
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Saereth

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Lol autocorrect, so tricksy :p

As far as the graphical glitch this is what we're seeing (not just me, all of us)

Soartek Texture pack + Optifine

Default textures + Optifine Removed

The issue exists regardless of the presence of optifine (was suggested as an issue elsewhere) and with default textures.
It appears to be most reproducible when viewing from the north/north east angle. I intend to take this to a proper support forum (as soon as I find one) but I figured I'd link this for clarification.

Sorry for the poor quality, just grabbed a quick vid on an old work laptop with struggling hardware.
 
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Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
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1. Lubrication seems counter intuitive to the system. The realism element not withstanding most of our playerbase has commented that it feels like a grind mechanic that offers little in the way of engagement or teaching, to the end that most rush towards gearbox and systems that require little or no lube such as the bedrock gears, cvts etc. continually supplying and producing lubrication, especially early in rotarycraft where it is actually needed the most becomes a frustration that detracts from the learning and enjoy ability of the mod at entry level. What you do with the feedback is ultimately yours to decide but in this scenario I would probably suggest allowing for recycling of lubrication to lessen the burden, or removing the continuous lubrication requirement from some devices, or requiring lubrication for bedrock devices. The consistency is key here so it doesn't feel like a race to get out of the wood/stone/steel age just to avoid lubricant as much as possible. We have guys who's sole focus becomes rushing a bedrock breaker for that very purpose, and doing it within a day of a new world. If the ultimate goal here is to simply skip all the other models and gear boxes then it's working.
Lubricant is used as the first gating resource. Machines that require lubricant are in essence saying "you must understand how to operate a grinder [net effect: understand the power system] before you can run this". Lubricant is hardly expensive; if GT-style grinding was my intention, you would need massive grinder and canola farms just to run one gearbox.

Also of note is that as of v25, gearboxes, CVTs, and High-Ratio gears keep their lubricant when broken. This does prevent them from being uncrafted while full, but reduces the "redesign penalty".

2. Multiple gear boxes to achieve ratios get in the way of aesthetic builds. Simply put if we need 3-4 gear boxes to get the gearing right on a device while some only need 1 its suddenly changes the way we are forced to layout our base and the amount of space we must dedicate to RC machines by a great deal. It severely limits compact builds. The CVT is nice once you reach that stage (which again many of our players race to within the first couple days) but some machines require even more than 32:1. I guess here a modular gear box, perhaps a step between a CVT that would allow for more varied ratios and greater ratios would be ideal. Even if it required the same or more resources but able to reduce that gearing change into a single block instead of 5-6 would help remove the space limitations.
Unless you need a ratio greater than 65536, and you never will, you never need more than two gearboxes chained together. I have no idea where your 5-6 figure comes from.

Also on the topic of CVTs, being able to bucket in lubricant to the cvt has been highly requested, not sure if its a bug or not that you can't, but it seems to be an intended design?
Bucketing it in is the only way to get lubricant in. What are you talking about?

3. on the topic of space saving, I love what you've done with current in Electricraft but along the same lines converting to current and suffering the loss from it yields little benefit, especially in the early game. It requires the creation of a completely new machine per device to receive power as well as the machine to convert to current. We need gear boxes to get the current right overall and then several gear boxes to get it to what we want at the receiving end. Couple that with the fact that many machines put out exactly enough power to run other machines and ANY loss means you literally can no longer use that machine for power. Again we get into a situation where EC is just avoided until end game when the loss less cabling can be used, and even then as a method to circumvent the lubrication requirements of a shaft power bus and/or for aesthetic reasons. I'm not sure there is a simple solution here that would satisfy your vision of RC, but it is a common complaint nonetheless.
ElectriCraft is not designed for widespread use early-game, just for power routing.


4. We experience a disappearing texture issue. Fans, grinders, magnetizers, toroid magnets etc do not render when viewed from certain directions. We have taken many steps to try and solve this (Minecraft 1.6.4, with optifine, without optifine, with custom texture packs, without custom texture pack), latest version of RC/Roc/EC/DragonAPI, all variations we have tried result in the same issue. Some of these machines looks really nice and having them consistently seen would definitely add to the polish of the mod.
The disappearing at a distance is intentional, and part of the new LOD mechanics. The random-angle behavior should be fixed in v25.

5. Decreased obscurity of consumption would be greatly appreciated. If the angular transducer or another device could estimate your amount of fuel/water/lubrication consumption it would definitely help the learning curve, and also go towards helping individuals feel they have mastered the machines. One instance of this was one of our players trying to get water to a solar tower, he had no idea how much it required. An accumulator wasn't enough, 4 accumulators weren't enough... he started adding in a couple pumps and finally got it right but all along he had no way of knowing his requirements to prepare for and build the infrastructure. I really like the fact that you're bringing some actual physics into play here and on that line of thinking systems design generally includes approximation of consumption of these types of things.
A few seconds of observation on most machines will give you those figures. Also, on most, there is no hardcoded "consume X per unit time" behavior to reference.

6. Lastly there is the issue of automation for some machines. A mode select for the way a machine is filled would be very useful. Take for instance a blast furnace. We can prefill it with gunpwder, coal and sand and keep those filled with pipes or ME export buses. If you try to dump in 9 iron to turn into steel after that, the expected behavior would be to fill the available slots first to begin processing all 9 at once. Instead it puts all 9 ingots into a stack in the first slot.
The Blast Furnace has no way of knowing you only intend to add nine iron. For all it knows, those nine are the first of 576. Also, by the time you are automating the blast furnace, you normally have enough iron that you really are pumping in nine full stacks.

EDIT:
v25 does bring some new behavior for non-mainline recipes like the ReC alloy ingots and the bedrock shaft units; if the main grid already contains the item attempting to be inserted, it can only be "refilled" into one of those slots. This solves issues like trying to automate the ferromagnetic ingot recipe and having automation pump in iron all over the grid.

Same is true for the compactor
The compactor has four recipes in RC and eight more with ReactorCraft. How is automation an issue?

(fractionation machine I just fill the last couple spots with cobble to effectively block them up).
???
Automation was assigned a specific slot for each item, and will not fill multiple slots with the same item on its own.
Your issue may be that you prefilled it by hand, where any item can go anywhere, and which likely does not align with the automatic assignment.
 
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Pyure

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ElectriCraft is not designed for widespread use early-game, just for power routing.
???
This just supports the poster's argument, that the early-game tools provided by the mod (lossy cabling) lack utility.

The Blast Furnace has no way of knowing you only intend to add nine iron. For all it knows, those nine are the first of 576. Also, by the time you are automating the blast furnace, you normally have enough iron that you really are pumping in nine full stacks.
Add iron to the slot with the least iron in it.
 
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Saereth

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???
This just supports the poster's argument, that the early-game tools provided by the mod (lossy cabling) lack utility.


Add iron to the slot with the least iron in it.

^This would be perfect, same for the compactor. If I want to have my machine 3 floors under me and have it craft 20 magnets I would like to be able to send 80 lodestone to it and have it go, instead it will
all dump into the first and second slot. Having it auto distribute would be preferable, even if that means that if you were to send 20 iron and then 5 copper to a blast furnace the 5 copper would have to wait.

As for the fractionation I meant to say I actually solved the automation issue by manually placing the items and keeping them fully stocked then filling the unused slots with cobble to prevent them from filling in with duplicates.

you are of course right that you can do everything with 2 cvts specifically, more needed in the pre-cvt era, 2 16:1s and then a 2:1 ... it takes up alot of space, but I guess if we're
really just meant to speed on towards cvts and stick with them it's just an annoyance for early game we'll live with.

The distance dissapearing is understood as part of Lod, no problem there, the angle thing being fixed in v25 is good news.

to summarize your responses for my own clarification:
1) intended, solution is to rush past this phase to diamond/bedrock/cvts etc ie, early game gating mechanism purely meant to slow you down similar to the approach by gregtech blast furnaces as I understand it
2) rush to cvts and never look back
3) dont use electricraft till late game, then redo you're entire base wiring at that point if you want to use it?
4) bug, will be fixed. (Yay!)
5) Automation... it is what it is

That seem about right or am I reading too much/too little into it?
 

Pyure

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That means iterating over the entire inventory every time an insertion request is made, and does little to help the actual problem, as the second ingot will get added to the first, since it has the least iron.
The "entire inventory" isn't very big. Java and such are excellent with such tiny iterations. And the second ingot would only get added to the first if you're doing it incorrectly (e.g not checking for the lowest-quantity slot again. Yes, every time, unless you're being really clever about remembering the best slot to use)

The performance hit here doesn't surpass "negligible" unless you have enough blast furnaces that you're already experiencing problems.
 
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Reika

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^This would be perfect, same for the compactor. If I want to have my machine 3 floors under me and have it craft 20 magnets I would like to be able to send 80 lodestone to it and have it go, instead it will
all dump into the first and second slot. Having it auto distribute would be preferable, even if that means that if you were to send 20 iron and then 5 copper to a blast furnace the 5 copper would have to wait.
This is not possible. I cannot control how items are added to the inventory, just provide a boolean value whether "slot x can accept item y". I cannot tell the item to spread itself over multiple slots. If a hopper/export bus/itemduct/pneumatic pump/item conduit tries to add a stack of 17 iron, it all goes in whatever slot accepts it first or not at all.

Additionally, there is no way to know what is coming "next" or what came "before", so every insertion must be treated in isolation with no reference to or knowledge of previous interactions or items yet to be inserted.

As for the fractionation I meant to say I actually solved the automation issue by manually placing the items and keeping them fully stocked then filling the unused slots with cobble to prevent them from filling in with duplicates.
You need seven ingredients and have seven slots. There are no unused slots. Show me a functional fractionator with some slots full of cobble.

you are of course right that you can do everything with 2 cvts specifically, more needed in the pre-cvt era, 2 16:1s and then a 2:1 ... it takes up alot of space, but I guess if we're
really just meant to speed on towards cvts and stick with them it's just an annoyance for early game we'll live with.
3) dont use electricraft till late game, then redo you're entire base wiring at that point if you want to use it?
You say that as if early-game setups are expected to be permanent and/or viable late-game, and that you consider it a design problem that the gameplay is not set-and-forget.

to summarize your responses for my own clarification:
1) intended, solution is to rush past this phase to diamond/bedrock/cvts etc ie
2) rush to cvts and never look back
The whole mod has been designed around blocking "rushing past" anything, so good luck with that.

early game gating mechanism purely meant to slow you down similar to the approach by gregtech blast furnaces as I understand it
You did not.

am I reading too much/too little into it?
Both. You appeared to understand little of what I said, given by your immediate restatement of points I refuted earlier, and you also make it sound like I designed RC with the goal of being slow and unpleasant to play.
Furthermore, you apparently complain about the fact you cannot go directly from the Blast Furnace to endgame setups, and express displeasure at the fact that RC is not gated with piles and piles of rare resources but instead a real progression, missing one of the fundamental design tenets of the mod. I find it ironic that you complain about how RC is "just like GregTech" when this design ethic is designed specifically to avoid the need to do what GT and most other mods do and grind for hours, days, or weeks to get the resources required to build a stupidly expensive machine.

RC content is powerful, and must be balanced. The way most mods do this is by making it require 2389 diamonds, 34984 iron, 234739 gold, and 2389438934298 redstone. I make you progress through a techtree instead, which is not only more enjoyable to actually do, but is available to people other than those who can spend 16 hours a day digging up rock or swinging a sword.
 
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Reika

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I would also like to point out that this gating mechanism is such that I receive roughly equal numbers of people complaining that RC is too underpowered and too overpowered. The people who truly understand the power system can sometimes reach endgame in days. Others spend six months trying to turn on the fermenter.


Get used to this Saereth; you got it easy :(
This, and the unstated-but-obvious implication that "Reika is not nice to people" irritate me significantly. Not only is this not true, but you are going to end up causing me problems later on when this starts some rumor two months from now. This reminds me of when I laughed at someone trying to use RC v19 with DragonAPI for MC 1.5 in MC 1.7 and suddenly noone was willing to submit bug reports for a week and then people complained about bugs going unfixed.
 
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