Impregnable bees

[ex13]

That is something annoying, but does this external modifier also includes inoculators with speed serums?

No, it includes only external modifiers (frames, mutator), but not bee-traits (speed).

EDIT: also, in what way are those numbers mesured? Do frames or mutators got a set value? I know they have set value increasements in production and mutation.. But not how to compare to those numbers

You just multiply (!) those numbers and compare them to the limit. I.e. with 3 impregnated frames, you have a production modifier of 2*2*2 -> no risk of losing the bee. With one mutator with uranium and one soul frame, you have a mutation modifier of 10*1.5 = 15 -> too much, your bee may die. I think the limits are 16 for production and 10 for mutation, but I'm not 100% sure.

Question, is this editable is the config?

You can set the beekeeping mode to EASY, this should remove the chance of your bees degenerating.

EDIT: Actually, easy beekeeping mode still lets bees degenerate; it just makes degenerated princesses life forever, like natural ones. That means that there is currently no config option to disable this, but if you only ever play on easy beekeeping mode, it does not matter.

 

[SteveTech]

I thought I was a *chance* for the bee to degrade to a swarmer if the external modifiers were above the threshold.

http://forum.feed-the-beast.com/threads/1-5-1-forestry-beta-features.19300/#post-226784

Segnir was gracious enough to stop by my bee math thread and reveal the exact numbers on the mutator and production multipliers. Any mutation chance above 10x has a chance to turn your princess into a swarmer, as does a production multiplier over 16. For production this equates to 4 frame housings with standard frames in an alveary (the best frame multiplier outside thaumic which I have not tested). For the mutation chance one mutator with uranium ore will hit it exactly. 5 frame housings with soul frames will put you just under 8, while 5 will put you at 11, so the best way to hit it exactly will be the mutator. These limits are pretty high, considering you can not get any mutation bonus in vanilla, and a max production mult of 1x. This is not so much him saying that he disagreed with what extra bees was doing, but more that he did not want it taken to the extremes. The significant buff to swarmers should also be considered, by using swarmers in the first place for production you avoid the negative effects, and can still get some insane production out of your bees.

 

[Siro]

I dunno, it seems to me that the balancing point for faster mutation was rarer material... If using a nether star to mutate your bees basically kills them, what's the point?

 

[Boccob]

I dunno, it seems to me that the balancing point for faster mutation was rarer material... If using a nether star to mutate your bees basically kills them, what's the point?

You can always use an isolator to grab the traits you want and stick them into a healthy bee? The extra bee machines save hours upon hours of breeding work for me.

 

[Technician]

I don't like these changes, mainly as I seriously don't understand them

Bees are EXTREMELY powerful though so..

 

[MilConDoin]

I don't like these changes, mainly as I seriously don't understand them

What do you not understand? What the change exactly does? Why it was implemented?
These changes were implemented on a request of Binnie (the author of Extra Bees), because the filling of an Alveary with a ton of frames made all the variables for a) mutation and b) base production chance completely useless, since they could always be boosted to maximum. With the new caps you can "only" boost your production by factor 16 (which is enough, that even the lowest chance of a normal product (Lordly Bee->Mysterious Comb) can be boosted to 136%, if the bee also has fastest speed, and the lowest specialty has a chance of 27.2%) and your mutation rate by factor 10 (so e.g. the Glittering Bee will still have a chance of 20% to mutate from Noble and Resolute).

 

[Siro]

You can always use an isolator to grab the traits you want and stick them into a healthy bee? The extra bee machines save hours upon hours of breeding work for me.

Well there's the chance you don't get the species serum before the isolator kills it and then you're down a princess plus the item you used for mutation with nothing to show for the effort. But eh, I guess I'm tripping over rocky princesses anyway with all the quarrying... I guess I can see why it would be changed to that.

 

[SteveTech]

What do you not understand? What the change exactly does? Why it was implemented?
These changes were implemented on a request of Binnie (the author of Extra Bees), because the filling of an Alveary with a ton of frames made all the variables for a) mutation and b) base production chance completely useless, since they could always be boosted to maximum. With the new caps you can "only" boost your production by factor 16 (which is enough, that even the lowest chance of a normal product (Lordly Bee->Mysterious Comb) can be boosted to 136%, if the bee also has fastest speed, and the lowest specialty has a chance of 27.2%) and your mutation rate by factor 10 (so e.g. the Glittering Bee will still have a chance of 20% to mutate from Noble and Resolute).

Is it a cap? From my understanding it is more of a loose dis-incentive to slow you down. After 16 the chance for a spawner starts to increase, but I do not believe it is guaranteed and I don't think it caps you.

 

[MilConDoin]

Is it a cap? From my understanding it is more of a loose dis-incentive to slow you down. After 16 the chance for a spawner starts to increase, but I do not believe it is guaranteed and I don't think it caps you.

The code Sengir posted for the mutation bonus does the following:
If the housing bonus is <= 10, then don't do anything special. If it is bigger, there is a chance for the queen do degrade. The code fragment doesn't state, if this code is checked every bee tick or only when the queen dies. On a mutation boost of just above 10, the swarmer-chance is close to zero, on a value of ~18.7 it reaches 100%.
I don't have the exact values for the production boost, but I assume this is similar: very small chance on going just above 16, but reaching 100% not too far away.

I'm sorry for saying in the last posts, that jumping over these hurdles will make your bee immediatly a swarmer, that was wrong. It is indeed only a chance, if you overshoot by only a small margin. Thanks for stubbornly re-asking, this made me check my "facts"

 

[Technician]

Okay so this is what I wonder then (I'm stupid so everything you are saying is like WOOSH)

Can I not up the productivity of a "slower" worker to a fastest now? Or does that, due to the high level of genetic change then literally make the bee go crazy?

Also I heard some blah blah about frames which I may use but really whatever

 

[SteveTech]

...Thanks for stubbornly re-asking, this made me check my "facts"

lol, that's what I'm here for. To stubbornly make people check facts in the hopes that people reading threads won't think the wrong thing and then proceed to spread it everywhere. Kill the virus before it escapes lest we be forever haunted by it.

I was not aware that the likelihood of a swarmer raised so quickly after that threshold.

...
Can I not up the productivity of a "slower" worker to a fastest now? Or does that, due to the high level of genetic change then literally make the bee go crazy?...

From my understanding, a genetically modified bee is fine(either through natural mutations or through cramming it into extra bees machines). Only external modifiers, such as frames and (mutator blocks?), can cause "instability" in the bee and has a chance to convert a normal bee into a swarmer.

In case you are not aware, a swarmer is a bee that will eventually expire, Cease to exist, poof, thus making you lose a queen.

 

[Booker The Geek]

Curious of what you wonderful people think.... link I HERE

Spoiler

Just wanted thought before I continued on with the other bees.

I didn't include Common/Cultivated, cause really you should be able to find that if your able to find this.

 

[MilConDoin]

Curious of what you wonderful people think.... link I HERE

Spoiler

Just wanted thought before I continued on with the other bees.

I didn't include Common/Cultivated, cause really you should be able to find that if your able to find this.

Looks nice. But you're missing the mutations to get Noble and Diligent.
Is that page auto-generated, or done manually? Looks a bit like the magic of well done LaTeX (manually, I'd say).
Whereever you want to post these pictures: Add in front a list of all the hive bees as well as the recipes for common+cultivated and say, that you expect those to be known for the pictures.

 

[Booker The Geek]

Looks nice. But you're missing the mutations to get Noble and Diligent.
Is that page auto-generated, or done manually? Looks a bit like the magic of well done LaTeX (manually, I'd say).
Whereever you want to post these pictures: Add in front a list of all the hive bees as well as the recipes for common+cultivated and say, that you expect those to be known for the pictures.

Added for noble and diligent, check the link, it goes to the album now.

With the latex baby.... (I do it in Visio.)

 

[Quesenek]

Mm. the 4 frame thing is from sengir himself, but the second part is just passed around from forum chatter.
So we can take the 4 frames as a definite, 5 frames or more in an alveary = swarmer bee at some point in time.
Which isn't so bad, most bees still can get 100% comb production with the fastest trait and four frames, only the very slow comb bees won't.
(such as platnium)

I thought it was 4 modifier blocks for example, for breeding you could have 3 mutator blocks and 1 frame housing block on an alviary and still be safe. Either way 4 frame housing blocks are enough to get the max output from super bees.

 

[Adonis0]

I thought it was 4 modifier blocks for example, for breeding you could have 3 mutator blocks and 1 frame housing block on an alviary and still be safe. Either way 4 frame housing blocks are enough to get the max output from super bees.

Nope, in answer to your post, I quote another post in this thread.

The code Sengir posted for the mutation bonus does the following:
If the housing bonus is <= 10, then don't do anything special. If it is bigger, there is a chance for the queen do degrade. The code fragment doesn't state, if this code is checked every bee tick or only when the queen dies. On a mutation boost of just above 10, the swarmer-chance is close to zero, on a value of ~18.7 it reaches 100%.
I don't have the exact values for the production boost, but I assume this is similar: very small chance on going just above 16, but reaching 100% not too far away.
[Snip]

It's the actual boost, not the blocks that determine your chance of the princess turning into a swarmer, External production boost up to 16, and external mutation boost up to 10 is fine, so you can have the entire alveary made out of mutator blocks, so long as you're just putting in ender pearls so that they don't multiply up to more than 10.

 

[Quesenek]

Nope, in answer to your post, I quote another post in this thread.



It's the actual boost, not the blocks that determine your chance of the princess turning into a swarmer, External production boost up to 16, and external mutation boost up to 10 is fine, so you can have the entire alveary made out of mutator blocks, so long as you're just putting in ender pearls so that they don't multiply up to more than 10.

LOOKS like i'm going to have to breed all of the bees before upgrading to the new forestry whenever FTB upgrades I could breed the bees in an apiary with soul frames but it already takes freaking forever to make them super breeders as it is.

Am I right in thinking that 4 frames for production are fine though?

 

[Adonis0]

LOOKS like i'm going to have to breed all of the bees before upgrading to the new forestry whenever FTB upgrades I could breed the bees in an apiary with soul frames but it already takes freaking forever to make them super breeders as it is.

Am I right in thinking that 4 frames for production are fine though?

Yes, four frames for production are guaranteed to have no effect. So for the most part this doesn't actually affect bee production lines

 

[Quesenek]

Yes, four frames for production are guaranteed to have no effect. So for the most part this doesn't actually affect bee production lines

Good, I modified my hive which had 6 frame housings on each alviary to only 4 and was thinking I was done until I saw this lol.
Looks like the only thing that would actually effect my bee routine is the mutator blocks I could simply breed the bees get the serum and then turn another bee with it. Actually this would be a good thing since I have over 1000 mundane princesses in storage lmao.

 

[DoctorOr]

Seriously? Making bees work hard or trying to give yourself a good mutation chance gives them a chance of turning into swarmers now? I am quite easygoing when its about nerfs and things.. But no.. Dont touch the bees.

You were never intended to have frames with alvearies at all. Binne made a huge mistake ever making the frame housing, one even he realized was too much and together with Sengir they put limits on their effects.

It's more flexible than a complete nerf though, giving you the option to push the bees anyways. Personally, I'd have just silently broken frame housings causing them to have no effect (but still eat the frames).

My weirdness aside.. Do you happend to have a link with info about this? I doubt we can stop the nerf so i might as well prepear and see what i CAN do with my bees

You can have up to 4 normal forestry or soul frames in an alveary. Somewhat less of the magic frames. Don't have more than one mutator. Apiaries should always be safe.