Dartcraft, why even?

Discussion in 'Mod Discussion' started by wolfenstein19, Jul 27, 2013.

  1. wolfenstein19

    wolfenstein19 Active Member

  2. twisto51

    twisto51 Well-Known Member

    Because ridiculously imbalanced mods are fine as long as certain people like them.
     
    CrissHill, Chocorate, immibis and 3 others like this.
  3. Lefty

    Lefty New Member

    same with ee3, but blame greg :p ridiculous
     
  4. Loufmier

    Loufmier Popular Member

    oh my... a butthurt thread again? i think i should drop to a level of GT fanboys and say:"dont like it? dont use it"
    it`s that simple.
     
    Odenite, degrief, Katrinya and 7 others like this.
  5. Neecro

    Neecro New Member

    This is easy
    In singleplayer: If you dont like it dont use it.
    In multiplayer: If you dont like it disable it.
     
    siebharrin, dgdas9 and acker like this.
  6. Loufmier

    Loufmier Popular Member

    strange, usually it works other way around...
     
    Dravarden, degrief, PyreBorn and 4 others like this.
  7. Grydian2

    Grydian2 Well-Known Member

    From a server admin point of view its much easier to get people to disable a mod from the launcher then to get people to download and add in a mod. So I would rather them add the mods and let us admins decide if they should be used or not. Not everyone is playing on a server designed for advanced users. Some people play casually and dont even want to work hard at stuff but want to play with others. IMO flexibility is always superior.
     
  8. Loufmier

    Loufmier Popular Member

    while its true, why players should even be bothered to disable mods? its no like they have compatibility issue when server doesnt have some mods.
     
  9. Vauthil

    Vauthil Runs With Scissors Team Member Global Moderator

    Or you can take the high road and not force me to lock this thread in the first two hours it's open as it descends into an aisle spill that requires cleanup. That means not using words like "fanboys" and "butthurt" when discussing people who merely disagree with you.

    Play nice. Thanks.
     
  10. Revemohl

    Revemohl Well-Known Member

    Because it's a good mod and it's fun. Why else?
    The difference between the "OP" Dartcraft and the "manly mod for manly people such as me" GregTech is that one of them doesn't force itself down your throat.
     
    Cirom, Harros, PyreBorn and 7 others like this.
  11. namiasdf

    namiasdf Well-Known Member

    Play with it if you'd like to. If you can have fun with it, why wouldn't you use it?

    If you feel like it ruins the game, then don't use it. There are plenty of exploits/mods that I don't use simply because I feel like they'd ruin the game for me. As for the discussion on how OP Dartcraft may be, you might want to open the discussion with more than an open-ended/baseless statement that can come from anywhere.

    If you're here to just complain, mods might as well lock the thread.
     
    PyreBorn and dwappo like this.
  12. mezomi

    mezomi Member

    Could anyone explain to me what is so OP about Dartcraft? It just doesn't seem very OP except the force engine and maybe the spoils bag. Honestly, I actually want to know.
     
  13. wolfenstein19

    wolfenstein19 Active Member

    That is because Greg has a very different understanding of Balance then you do. In his opinion, even Vanilla Mechanics are highly OP. Due to that, he nerfs them.

    Dartcraft on the other Hand sounds to me like "Well, screw Vanilla and lets give them creative and paint it survival"
     
  14. Vauthil

    Vauthil Runs With Scissors Team Member Global Moderator

    Here's my personal take on the DartCraft thing, as it really clicked during slow's stream the other day when he was starting his new Unleashed world and bee-lined through Dartcraft stuff.

    What Dartcraft does and does well is supplant the early-mid and mid game, rushing you up to the "end game". Unleashed, like Ultimate, is one of the packs that is great for building large systems and immense, complex contraptions. You only get into that part of the game once you've gotten through the "traditional Minecraft experience": digging tunnels, smelting ores, finding diamonds, etc. If extension of or even a total change of perspective for the early game is what you're looking for, I would suggest you check out the Unhinged, Magic Farm, or Ultra Hard Survival (private pack code: UHS) packs in the launcher, as they all have much more robust takes on the "survival" part of Minecraft.

    What Dartcraft doesn't usually do is outclass every mod at what it does best. The armor is pretty nifty, yes, but MPS armor is either more powerful or more versatile in the categories in which they compete. The tools are great, but the second tier of Tinker's Construct has really brought forward strong contenders. Force Engines are amazing early on, but they can't touch my bee-powered liquid fuel 36HP boilers. Whenever there's an overlap in functionality, DartCraft is generally either a mere alternative or second/third best.

    Then it adds functionality other mods don't really handle. You could say the Rod of Return competes with Mystcraft intra-linking following books, except you can't make following books legitimately at the moment. The Force Wrench, though, is the true standout item here. If the mod just added that, I would personally want it in every tech pack (it may need an improved opportunity cost/resource cost, granted).

    There are of course some holes. I think the "buff stick" Rods are rather crazy, especially when paired with Repair. The high level of Fortune/Looting stacking from enchants makes it a go-to "last hit" weapon for those who want to min-max drops. And the Loot Bags absolutely need tuning. But this seems to be stuff Bluedart is working on, so in the long term I'm not flipping out and in the short term I have to point something out: Unleashed at this point is still a beta pack and not a full release pack, balance is very definitely not certified.
     
    Katrinya, mathjazz, PyreBorn and 8 others like this.
  15. cynric

    cynric Active Member

    Hmm, it seems Dartcraft needs a few bugfixes, but to be honest, that has to be expected during the beta phase. Somewhat annoying if it happens on a server on an otherwise stable pack but with nether stars, the impact should be fairly limited.
     
  16. wolfenstein19

    wolfenstein19 Active Member

    See above, but Feedback is the key to balancing out a pack after the beta, right? I dont want to turn this topic into an insane shitstorm.
     
    jokermatt999 likes this.
  17. Revemohl

    Revemohl Well-Known Member

    And those are all things that make the mod unique and loved by its fans. If you strip it of everything new it offers, it's going to just end up a generic mod with overpriced things nobody will bother making.
    What should be done here, instead of nerfing everything and their mothers, is adding the option to turn off each of those things people complain about in the config, letting users (or server admins) decide how they want to balance stuff. Wow, just like in every other mod! At least Bluedart seems to already think like that, since his recent liquid force nerf was fully configurable (and only changed the burn time of it in his engine).

    As for the thing with the nether stars (which I only just saw because reddit is an amazingly user-friendly website), I really don't think that's intended. I mean, seriously. If you were a mod author, would you add a way to let people get 21 of a rare item at once?
     
    Katrinya likes this.
  18. Vauthil

    Vauthil Runs With Scissors Team Member Global Moderator

    Doing things other mods don't do at all isn't usurping "best in slot" though, it's creating new functionality. I already conceded the places where it fails (like the buff rods with repair) below where you went into listing it, but bringing the Rod of Return (which competes with... nothing) or the Force Shears (again, nothing, unless you're really odd and put iChun's grinder mod into your game).

    Advanced Forestry Bags are 45 slot and much easier for me to manage (I don't feel the need to micro-manage the input cards when Forestry has bags for basically everything), and Golden Bags of Holding have 52 slots of goodness I can portably carry. The Power Drill is nice enough, but the MPS glove is far, far more versatile. You have to carry a full menagerie of items to meet that threshold of functionality, and it still lacks in places.

    You're focused on singular powerful items. That's fair enough. I happen to find more end-game utility in items with higher versatility and less maintenance, though, but that's admittedly personal preference. When I'm utterly decimating the world multiple chunks at a time, I'm not really concerned with faster branch mining (even more ridiculously so if we get an RP2 replacement capable of running frame quarries: I was making 2 chunks a minute disappear with my last contraption). And it's not like you're just handed that Tier 7 book from the sky from the get-go anyway. There's a resource requirement for getting there that's a trade-off when weighed against focusing on other things.

    I don't think we're entirely disagreeing here. I just am pointing out that Unleashed isn't really the pack where we worry about truly surviving Minecraft so much. That's usually not an imperative in the heavy tech packs in any iteration.
     
    jokermatt999, Mero, Revemohl and 3 others like this.
  19. KirinDave

    KirinDave Over-Achiever

    This is a really, really good summary and mirrors my migration to and then from DartCraft in my let's play.

    DartCraft seems very, very powerful when you start out because it is. It annihilates the early game. Go dart or go home, basically. But later on it's not that great. It's upper bounds are sorta meh compared to what other mods can do. If you really wanna see this in the extreme, note that a maxed out speed+fortune TiCo hammer is insanely better than a maxed out force drill. Like humorously so. Of course, one is orders of magnitude more expensive than the other, but whatevs. DartCraft makes it cheap to get that many resources.

    For some people this is fine. Let's face it, we've all gone caving a lot. And after a certain point, it's easy for ALL of us to get infinite resources. Not just easy, but inevitable. The only thing that stops you from having Infinite Everything is your inclination to build the items you need, and most are not had to get. And then you can get to the truly absurdly strong stuff, like endgame TiCo and endgame MPS (You basically cannot make an argument that Dartcraft is radically OP without also making most of the same arguments for MPS, unless you turn on Gregtech recipes and many of us don't play with Gregtech (and the GT recipes are curiously weird anyways, with flight being CRAZY expensive).

    For some people, escaping that initial diggy-hole part of the game is at trial by fire every time. Interrupting that is interrupting a holy of holies. For others, it's a boring step before they can build what they actually want to build.

    I hope people realize though that right now, Vanilla is overturning huge swaths of the meta for Modded Minecraft. A lot of stuff is too expensive right now, and everyone sitting here saying that things should be more expensive needs to look at what Vanilla has been quietly doing. The game of diggy hole ends earlier and earlier. And now we have vanilla hoppers and comparators which make a lot of automation systems look stupidly expensive.
     
  20. Dee_Twenty

    Dee_Twenty Active Member

    I was contemplating writing up a tool comparison earlier and this is a point I planned to address, actually. While the power glove (it's so bad) may not do any one job as well as other tools it does most jobs while taking up only one inventory slot, it's your sword, bow, crafting bench, axe, shears, pick, shovel, and more all at once. Thaumcraft's tools are the wizard of the party, force tools are the rogue, Tinkers Construct is the fighter, and the power glove (it's so bad) is the bard.
     

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