About the Custom Packs! :)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Of course, you can always use Config Packs from MultiMC... since it's not distributing mods, it's perfectly legit. And it keeps everyone on the same page. And since it's just the config settings, the size of the file is measured in KB rather than MB, and is some thousand times faster to download.

 

[LazDude2012]

I'm against making all my users wait through hours of adf.ly links, hence the point of a server pack in the first place.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm against making all my users wait through hours of adf.ly links, hence the point of a server pack in the first place.

Over-exaggeration for effect doesn't help your case. It's maybe a few minutes, half an hour tops for a heavily modded server. Once. Assuming you aren't basing it on a mod pack and can just say "Grab the DirePack, then add this fork of Logistics Pipes and this distro of ABO, and you're done".

 

[Caito]

I

Over-exaggeration for effect doesn't help your case. It's maybe a few minutes, half an hour tops for a heavily modded server. Once. Assuming you aren't basing it on a mod pack and can just say "Grab the DirePack, then add this fork of Logistics Pipes and this distro of ABO, and you're done".

I don't think that's the issue here. The issue is that the current process is as long and dull as the old manual way of doing things. The issue is that this could be so much easier to the point of clicking several buttons and be done within several minutes. Instead you have to ask for permission!?! To use the mod? Why? The mod devs gave their permission when they posted the mod on the forums and said "go ahead and download". Now I do understand if you were going to distribute the mod because then the mod dev may or may not get the credit for it. But in the case of the private packs you aren't doing that. FTB is distributing the mods and they have permission from the devs. So why does the average user need to go to 20 different forum posts to write the same post or maybe pm the dev, asking for permission that may or may not be given?

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I
I don't think that's the issue here. The issue is that the current process is as long and dull as the old manual way of doing things. The issue is that this could be so much easier to the point of clicking several buttons and be done within several minutes. Instead you have to ask for permission!?! To use the mod? Why? The mod devs gave their permission when they posted the mod on the forums and said "go ahead and download". Now I do understand if you were going to distribute the mod because then the mod dev may or may not get the credit for it. But in the case of the private packs you aren't doing that. FTB is distributing the mods and they have permission from the devs. So why does the average user need to go to 20 different forum posts to write the same post or maybe pm the dev, asking for permission that may or may not be given?

Because you putting the 'server mod pack' in your Dropbox for your friends is different than the FTB Launcher allowing anyone with the Launcher potential access to it. Your problem is that your server pack can 'go viral' just like Technic did, and end up with the same problems Technic had with not getting permissions and getting people irate about it. When Yogscast hit up the Technic Pack, their usership went from about a dozen to several thousand, practically overnight. Because Yogscast pointed everyone to where they could download the Technic Pack, it became widely distributed to people not on their server, and suddenly it became Not Okay.

If you set it up so that your server pack can be downloaded by anyone with your server code, all it takes is that server code to end up somewhere and your server pack has the potential to have the same thing happen to it, with the same unfortunate drama that ensues. And the FTB Launcher would be tarred with the same brush for being the vehicle of that distribution.

Ownership of the Mods is with the Mod Owners, not with FTB. Granting FTB permission for one, or even a half dozen, Mod Packs does not equate granting them blanket access to any and all mod packs they might ever want to make. Unless every single mod author signs off on a blanket waiver of "The FTB Team has the right to distribute my mod as they see fit in any and all projects they undertake", the FTB team ONLY has permission for those specific mod packs the mod authors signed off on.

Now, I agree, it would be really cool for all the mod authors to sign off on a blanket waiver like that, because it *would* enable the FTB team to do something like what you envision, basically you pick and choose which mods on the 'menu' of available mods which have those blanket permissions granted you would like in your mod pack, then badda-bing, badda-boom, out pops your custom mod pack. Then you could have a variable string which other players could plug into the FTB Launcher to get the exact same one.

However, with that flexibility, there comes a potential problem... Mod Packs are made so everyone is on the 'same page'. If you see a server that says 'We run on the DirePack', then everyone knows what that is, and can use it. Customization on that order would pretty much mean every server has a different mod loadout, meaning everyone has to download yet *another* mod pack to play on that server. Each mod pack being several hundred megs in size... you're quickly adding up into the gigs of data for all these custom packs, rather than a single pack for all. And 'convenience' really wouldn't be very convenient anymore, because you're still having to download everything.

Furthermore, it adds another level of obscurity on the mod authors. For those who followed DW20's Forgecraft Server Let's Play, did you have ANY idea who the guy who handled MCP actually WAS and why his work was so important to EVERY modder out there until it was explained? No? Now take that level of obfuscation and apply it to the mod authors. Now they aren't even getting recognized for their work, except by the FTB team and the 'insiders'. The average joe user won't have a clue, because he won't need one. That also means fewer donations, and fewer adfly hits, which means they won't even be able to afford the hosting fees for their mods anymore. Which means the mods themselves just won't be updated anymore... and we simply won't have those mods anymore. It's already a labor of love, that would just turn it into a labor.

Heck, I've got most of the mods I prefer to play with downloaded into my MultiMC/Mods/1.4.6 folder. I want to make up a custom pack for me to play on, I just refer to that folder and pick out the ones I want. I don't need to re-download any of them. That's what a Config Pack does... and that's why Config Packs are so useful... odds are, you've already GOT most of the mods on your computer already, you just need to point to them. And every one you don't need to download is less bandwidth used, less time downloading crap you already have, and fewer gigs bloating up your hard drive.

 

[frederikam]

OK, that seems a bit longwinded, more so than doing it manually in fact! So, with this process, why would anyone do this instead of the current system, or Technic's system?

Because illegal distributing is bad, in my and obviously(Well, I can't speak for him) also in Slowpoke's opinion.

 

[Dravarden]

In my opinion private mod packs should be:
A list of mods with permission to choose from (and/or use another mod pack as a base), choose them, edit ore generation and config files (within the launcher) and when it's finished you get the code to send to friends, and is automatically updated.

Where to store the thousands of thousands of mod packs for download? Easy, just use a cloud where all the mods are, and when you use the code, a list gets send to the cloud and the mods get downloaded.
Auto update? Simply have the cloud always with the latest mods.

 

[LazDude2012]

ShneekeytheLost: See my earlier posts re: private packs going viral. As I've said there, nobody wants to use JSTRCraft's server pack. They'll be wanting Mindcrack, or possibly Direwolf pack, maybe FTB Ultimate when it's out.

Private packs, and let me say this again, shouldn't need permissions.
Public packs really shouldn't either, but in a community like this, there will be people on all sides crying about it.

Freely redistributing freely distributed modifications to a game which allows free distribution of modifications? Say it isn't so!
(or, you know, grow up and get past this whole issue)

 

[GearSB]

Basically, the private modpack option is completely useless. Because really, how the hell is anyone supposed to get permission from some of these authors like Eloraam who only communicate directly with the community every couple of months or so?

What if I want to use the Direwolf pack, but add a few mods of my own to adjust the recipe balance of the game? Or add some new items? Or use someone elses mod in addition to DWpack?

Are these big time mod authors seriously going to spend the time to reply to someone they never heard of before to give permission for their mods to be in a private pack?

No. They won't even reply to your email to tell you no. You'll just be ignored as spam.

It'll probably be easier to get the mods you want in your modpack included in the ultimate pack than to get permission from the other modpack authors.

 

[LazDude2012]

I agree. Even a custom zip feature like Technic's would have been better than this. :/

 

[GearSB]

Best way to get a private modpack approved will be to make a youtube series about one of the standard modpacks. Once your a somebody, then the mod authors will give you the time of day to approve your custom modpack.

 

[LazDude2012]

Well, that's the gist of it, you see? Slowpoke assumes it'll be easy to acquire these permissions, because for him it would be. He's friends with the modders. He knows them, and they'd tell him "Of course you can, man!" Me? I mean, I'm an ordinary dude. They don't know me, nor do they really wish to. They have no reason to even answer my emails, (that's if I even have their email addresses), let alone to give me permission to redistribute their mods.

Heck, last time I asked a major mod author, they said no!

 

[danidas]

For me I am just worried about how mod authors and the community will react to the new easy to use private pack landscape that is forming. Which raises the question of where does a private pack end and a public one begin in re-guard to getting permissions and avoiding the wrath of mod devs. Mainly because it is now easier then ever to make a mod pack and share it with the community.

For example their is nothing stopping me from making a tekkit lite, mindcrack, direwolf, and any other pack with optifine pre-installed and any other highly requested mods. Which I could then advertise to those that are requesting those mods to be added to said mod packs to use even thou I and FTB/technic do not have permission for them. Note I am not saying that I would do this but I see others doing it in the future.

 

[LazDude2012]

honestly, the optifine creator shouldn't be so asinine about modpacks in the first place. But, sure. You could do that. But why would anyone use it? It's easy to just drop Optifine in the jarmods section.

 

[GearSB]

*Edit*

honestly, the optifine creator shouldn't be so asinine about modpacks in the first place. But, sure. You could do that. But why would anyone use it? It's easy to just drop Optifine in the jarmods section.

As I've discovered, the 'where's the any button' effect is still alive and well with computer users. There are just some people who, despite writing a step by step series of instructions, and even pointing to a youtube video that shows every step, can't figure out how to do this.
Then there are the people who just can't be bothered to make any kind of effort.
*Edit*

Essentially, they need some sort of permission system for FTB, with multiple levels of permissions for mod authors, and a way for pack makers to request permission from authors in a way that they'll actually look at.

And perhaps some sort of server pack authentication system too, to keep private packs private by only allowing them to be played on authorized servers and singleplayer for each particular pack.

I see four levels of permissions and mod packs.

1. Universal - as long as it's distributed on FTB, you can use this particular mod in any kind of modpack, no special permission needed. Whether it be public modpacks like Direwolf20, or private server packs.

2. Open Permission - the mod author gives permission for their mods to be used in any private modpacks, but not new public modpacks. They can still go sorta public if the modpack code is spread around, but odds are low, and can always be upgraded to a full fledged public pack if you can get the permissions for it.

3. Closed Permission - the mod author gives permission for their mods to be used in closed private modpacks using a theoretical server authorization function of FTB, only allowing the modpack to be played on authorized servers and singleplayer for players whitelisted on authorized servers. This is a truly private pack, as it relies on a theoretical authentication scheme built into FTB and FTB servers.

4. Conditional - what we have now, where each use of the mod in any kind of modpack has to be individually approved my each mod author, hopefully through some sort of FTB permission request system.

But most important, and probably most doable, is to set up some sort of permission system to connect modpack makers with mod authors in a timely and convenient manner so that modpack makers aren't spending months hunting authors down trying to get a yes/no out of them.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

ShneekeytheLost: See my earlier posts re: private packs going viral. As I've said there, nobody wants to use JSTRCraft's server pack. They'll be wanting Mindcrack, or possibly Direwolf pack, maybe FTB Ultimate when it's out.

Technic thought that... look what happened to them. I'm not saying it is likely, I'm saying it's possible. FTB doesn't want to take that risk.

Private packs, and let me say this again, shouldn't need permissions.
Public packs really shouldn't either, but in a community like this, there will be people on all sides crying about it.

The problem is... once it's on the FTB Launcher, it's no longer Private.

Freely redistributing freely distributed modifications to a game which allows free distribution of modifications? Say it isn't so!
(or, you know, grow up and get past this whole issue)

It's called Manners. I know, it's an old, antiquated concept these days, but back when I grew up, if someone made somethin' you wanted to use, you asked them if you could use it before borrowing.

Not all mod authors what their mods running with any other mod out there. There's some mods that create synergies outside the scope and bounds of both mods original intents. Those mod authors, who might well be good friends, might both agree they don't want their mods in the same pack together because of these synergies, and that altering the code of one or both of the mods to prevent it would completely alter the dynamic of the mod. Or, two mod authors could just hate each other's guts and don't want their mod in any pack with 'the other guy's' mod.

Petty or noble, the reasons are entirely academic. You ask because it's polite to do so. I don't give a hangnail about 'legalities' or any of that BS, the entire argument about copyrights and defensibility and all that nonsense is entirely irrelevant. You do it because if you are rude enough to the people who make the mods, they may decide to stop making the mods. After all, it's not like they are making any money off of this, so the only real reason they do it is because they like doing it, for one reason or another. Be a jerk, and they may decide to go do some other project instead.

 

[LazDude2012]

You know what? I'm going to leave your argument be. It's fine. You can be as stuck-in-the-mud about permissions as you want.

As I said before, Technic was unique. There were no public alternatives, people took what they could get.

And, as per the principle of pragmatism/human nature, if you really want full control of something, there's only one way to do that. Don't release it. Keep it to yourself. Once it's in the public, for free no less, you have no right to complain about people, (who aren't making money off your work either) mirroring it. You've given it out for free, they're giving it out for free. Manners has nothing to do with it. If there were only one copy out there, sure. But they're infinitely copyable data.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And, as per the principle of pragmatism/human nature, if you really want full control of something, there's only one way to do that. Don't release it. Keep it to yourself. Once it's in the public, for free no less, you have no right to complain about people, (who aren't making money off your work either) mirroring it. You've given it out for free, they're giving it out for free. Manners has nothing to do with it. If there were only one copy out there, sure. But they're infinitely copyable data.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about manners having nothing to do with it.

The mod authors are not being paid for their services, they are acting as volunteers, in effect. Piss them off, and they will just stop writing and updating mods. Then where will your mod packs be?

 

[LazDude2012]

Where they are right now. There won't be any progress. Except, oh wait, sure there will. You see, there are a lot of people who aren't that petty, and are perfectly willing to make mods. There are plenty of good, open source mods. And that number will keep growing. Some modders leave because of (ego/money/pettiness)? That's ok, there are over 8 million people who play Minecraft, and I'm sure thousands of them know Java and are willing to mod. Heck, I had a small project table mod for a while. If RedPower never updated again? I'd work to replace it. I've got a full plan right here, but it's not needed. I'm waiting in the wings, and I know others are as well.

If there's one thing I know about most modders, it's that they're modding because they want to. They're modding because they enjoy modding. It's why they (most of them anyway) can shake off so much criticism. They're not modding for you, they're modding for them. They'll keep writing mods, because they enjoy it.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Where they are right now. There won't be any progress. Except, oh wait, sure there will. You see, there are a lot of people who aren't that petty, and are perfectly willing to make mods. There are plenty of good, open source mods. And that number will keep growing. Some modders leave because of (ego/money/pettiness)? That's ok, there are over 8 million people who play Minecraft, and I'm sure thousands of them know Java and are willing to mod. Heck, I had a small project table mod for a while. If RedPower never updated again? I'd work to replace it. I've got a full plan right here, but it's not needed. I'm waiting in the wings, and I know others are as well.

Knowing some java doesn't equate to the level of skill someone like Eloraam has. I'd love to see you try to write code as elegant and smooth as she produces in the same time frame. You also assume that all of these potential modders have the time to make those mods. Why aren't they providing alternatives already?

If there's one thing I know about most modders, it's that they're modding because they want to. They're modding because they enjoy modding. It's why they (most of them anyway) can shake off so much criticism. They're not modding for you, they're modding for them. They'll keep writing mods, because they enjoy it.

Until you make them not enjoy it because of your rudeness...

I'm more than a little shocked by the self-entitlement that is simply assumed here. You simply assume that the mod authors will continue to write mods, no matter how much you abuse them. You assume that they should make things more convenient for you, and accuse them of being egotistical/greedy/petty because they don't. Guess what... your convenience is not, and should not be, their primary driving force. Instead of being thankful for what is being provided, you complain that you are entitled to more.

Before you get into the whole 'customer service' farce, allow me to preemptively debunk it. You aren't a customer. You aren't paying a dime for what they produce. They owe you nothing. Your option is to either accept their terms and conditions, or decline to use their mods and launchers, and continue going about it as you have. The FTB Launcher has already 'idiot proofed' mod use to a trivial degree, even moreso than the MMC Config Packs have. If you don't want to use one of their packs... that's your decision. Your alternative is to make your own custom pack and distribute it privately to those on your server. However, the FTB Launcher is too public a venue to call it a private distribution.